What's your supplement list during cycle?

[Devson]

Which supplements stop working when you run a cycle?

According to one doctor who seemed to know his stuff, anything to do with lipids for lipid purposes so citrus bergamot and lysine but fish oil is good for a whole range of things. Basically you're unlikely to get your lipids under control while doing anything above real trt. I'm curious if insulin sensitivity might also not go down much with supplements while on cycle or how much testicular supplements will work while on and I also am skeptical about ubiqional but I have no reason to believe it may not be worth it.

Medications are different though but you probably don't want to find the correct dosage with your doctor for any medication while on cycle even some anti depressants and ADHD medication.

I'm personally saving my citrus bergamot, ubiqional, and any other expensive supplement for after a cycle.

 

[Cadillac]

Curious what you guys use while Ur on cycle. For me I use a ton of shit. When I'm focused on the gym and taking gear... These are the Supps I take.
I've done countless hours of research and altho I believe the supplement industry is 90% full of shit. I feel these supplements/vitamins etc do prove useful while using gear and trying to build muscle. Aswell as off gear but while on.. Things like selenium, Zinc, copper, chromium (if using insulin) are far more beneficial

Im currently just cruising on 200mg test e/week. So I'm not taking all of these... The ones I commonly take on a cruise I will put an asterisk before.

*-Creatine mono-5g pre (if using pre insulin ill take 5mg in am and another 5mg intra)
*-L- Glutamine - 10mg post workout, 10mg with last meal before bed
-EAA - 10-21g intra
-taurine - 3g intra plus another 2-4g/day
-digestive enzymes with meal 1 and meal 3-4
*-Vitamin d3 10000iu
*-Vitamin c 2-4g/day 500mg each meal
*-Melatonin -megadose 60-80mg per day
-Selenium 200mg/day
*-Zinc 100mg /day
*-5htp 200mg.before bed
*-Fish oil (liquid) - 15g/day (4g dha+epa)
*-Allmax vitastack 1 Pack per day
*-Vitamin b12 injection-1000mcg/week
*-Choline-1g/day while on orals or before cut
*-Inositol-1g/day while on orals or before cut
-NAC-2g/day while on orals or before a cut
-niacin 1-2g/day
*-Ubiquenol 200mg per day plus 100-200mg pre
-L theanine 300mg before bed. Sometimes 100mg pre workout also
-berberine 1g-1.5g/day
-Beet Root powder 5-10g preworkout
*-Whey protein iso - usually just 40g pre and 70g before bed
-Dextrose for when I run out of hbcd
-Highly branched cyclic dextrine 40-150g intra
*-Vitamin k2 (mk4) 600mcg
*-Magnesium glycinate - 1-3g/day (250mg per meal plus 500-1000mg before bed)
*-Pink salt - on all meals plus 2-4g intra
*-"No" salt (salt substitute) - 2-6g intra
*-preworkout - stim and no stim

Each has their own role... I don't think I have anything ground breaking on here but I also don't think I'm missing anything except perhaps copper.

Curious what you all take?

1-2 grams of Niacin a day?! Shit, you can probably be spotted from outer space!

 

[Goldenrod]

According to one doctor who seemed to know his stuff, anything to do with lipids for lipid purposes so citrus bergamot and lysine but fish oil is good for a whole range of things. Basically you're unlikely to get your lipids under control while doing anything above real trt. I'm curious if insulin sensitivity might also not go down much with supplements while on cycle or how much testicular supplements will work while on and I also am skeptical about ubiqional but I have no reason to believe it may not be worth it.

Medications are different though but you probably don't want to find the correct dosage with your doctor for any medication while on cycle even some anti depressants and ADHD medication.

I'm personally saving my citrus bergamot, ubiqional, and any other expensive supplement for after a cycle.

Hi @Devson - do as you feel is right but the time your body needs help controlling BP, lipids, liver/kidney protection is while you are taking the PED that could potentially be an issue. Afterwards is important too but to ignore during makes no sense to me.
There are others that feel this way - take your supplements after the cycle but their reasoning was something to do with it impacting the gains on the cycle. I disagree and will always lean towards the former but no one else has to.
How ubiquinol would stop providing medical benefits because you are on cycle is hard to fathom - you say you have no reason to believe this but there has to be a reason you aren't explaining? We do things or don't for a reason.

One doctor's opinion is worth a lb of shit unless they cycle, take supplements to protect themselves, and also monitor their blood and have data showing it doesn't work. That being said - it doesn't work for them and does not mean it won't work for other members. Respectfully to the doctors here and everywhere - there are good and bad ones and most know little to nothing about most PED and even less about Naturopathic medicine.

I will try to put this into a real example of a common drug. People are put on 1000 of Acetaminophen every 4 hours for 2 weeks for pain - after a minor surgery (recently a good friend was for minor oral surgery). If that doesn't put more stress on your liver, I would be very surprised but it is very common for doctors to tell you take Acetaminophen because it has no contradictions. We know from several studies taking Sam-e and NAC will protect your liver and keep your glutathione in a regular range to mitigate any damage. Why would you wait for the damage, then treat it, and hope it gets better?

As I said you should do what you think is right but I don't follow the logic or science behind waiting until after the cycle especially if you are taking any PED's that have bad sides.

 

[Devson]

Hi @Devson - do as you feel is right but the time your body needs help controlling BP, lipids, liver/kidney protection is while you are taking the PED that could potentially be an issue. Afterwards is important too but to ignore during makes no sense to me.
There are others that feel this way - take your supplements after the cycle but their reasoning was something to do with it impacting the gains on the cycle. I disagree and will always lean towards the former but no one else has to.
How ubiquinol would stop providing medical benefits because you are on cycle is hard to fathom - you say you have no reason to believe this ut there has to be a reason you aren't explaining? We do things or don't for a reason.

One doctor's opinion is worth a lb of shit unless they cycle, take supplements to protect themselves, and also monitor their blood and have data showing it doesn't work. That being said - it doesn't work for them and does not mean it won't work for other members. Respectfully to the doctors here and everywhere - there are good and bad ones and most know little to nothing about most PED and even less about Naturopathic medicine.

I will try to put this into a real example of a common drug. People are put on 1000 of Acetaminophen every 4 hours for 2 weeks for pain - after a minor surgery (recently a good friend was for minor oral surgery). If that doesn't put more stress on your liver, I would be very surprised but it is very common for doctors to tell you take Acetaminophen because it has no contradictions. We know from several studies taking Sam-e and NAC will protect your liver and keep your glutathione in a regular range to mitigate any damage. Why would you wait for the damage, then treat it, and hope it gets better?

As I said you should do what you think is right but I don't follow the logic or science behind waiting until after the cycle especially if you are taking any PED's that have bad sides.

I will see if I can get a very detailed answer in the future explaining the direct chemistry of why citrus bergamot would not work. The doctor is involved in the bodybuilding community, but as far as I know he isn't much of a bodybuilder. You may be correct and I completely agree that a lot of doctors are very full of bs. Its hard to argue results if you're taking supplements and you get blood work done and it says it's working. There are a lot of other things that are going on in the body though other than what blood work would show. Things similar to aspirin not actually thinning blood but instead stopping platelets from binding together as easily or that there are very good and healthy parts of LDL cholesterol and cortisol.

The ubiqional thing was a shot in the dark so I don't think anyone should go off what I said in regards to that but it wouldn't shock me. I could just be buying into total bullcrap though from someone seemingly trust worthy!

 

[ironwill]

Please see my post on mixing supplements and vitamins etc. I see some folks go way overkill and do not understand that some mixes are detrimental. I keep it simple and utilize supplements and minerals etc, but i frequently check to ensure i am not creating worse environment by mixing.
I most times run one supp then cease and start another then cease etc.
Depending on blood work and feeling and self awareness...Pay heed to cross mixtures..

 

[Bigbear]

 

[largeforlife]

I dont add much on cycle since I take a ton of stuff daily. If i didn't love tea i would probably add quercetin as well.

Gallon of green tea
Collagen
Multivitamin
Vit d
Zma
Curcumin
Nac
5g fish oil
Ubiquinol
Vitamin K
Creatine, coffee, tyrosine,eaas, hbcd( pre workout)

On cycle I add
Black cumin seed oil
Citrus bergamot

does collagen help much with joint pain for you?

 

[Cheapshot]

does collagen help much with joint pain for you?

I just started it. To early to tell

 

[Synyster]

1-2 grams of Niacin a day?! Shit, you can probably be spotted from outer space!

Its weird I do t get flushed at all even from the cheap niacin. But everyone else on a single pill turn into a tomato

 

[Synyster]

According to one doctor who seemed to know his stuff, anything to do with lipids for lipid purposes so citrus bergamot and lysine but fish oil is good for a whole range of things. Basically you're unlikely to get your lipids under control while doing anything above real trt. I'm curious if insulin sensitivity might also not go down much with supplements while on cycle or how much testicular supplements will work while on and I also am skeptical about ubiqional but I have no reason to believe it may not be worth it.

Medications are different though but you probably don't want to find the correct dosage with your doctor for any medication while on cycle even some anti depressants and ADHD medication.

I'm personally saving my citrus bergamot, ubiqional, and any other expensive supplement for after a cycle.

I think what you may be referring to is that raising Ur hdl while on cycle thru more aerobic cardio, niacin etc. Doesn't help anything at all except looks pretty on paper. It didn't lower mortality rate or rate of future heart issues.
What does work is lowering LDL if it's high (which is very easy), and decreasing Ur hdl to LDL ratio. But for instance with me my LDL is always fine.. Never high. But my hdl goes low when I'm running dht drugs typically. If I just tried to raise my hdl alone... There's no point at all. Assuming that I'm already exercising and not going from Ur typical lazy asshole on the couch to doing daily cardio. That of course helps but the niacin to raise hdl is a waste of time.

 

[Synyster]

Your list is excessive. Stop overthinking there is no point in addressing every little detail often at the cost of the solid basics. If you don’t have your training and nutrition in order all of this is a waste.

Curcumin
Omega
K2 + D3
Collagen
Arjuna

Excessive to you and your goals perhaps.

But what exactly on my list is filler that could be taken off? Niacin maybe, EAA dose could come down, Beet Root could come down.
I don't find it that crazy when u go thru it.
It looks like a lot bc I take almost everything individually to control the variables rather than taking an "organ health product" for example.

Unless you have an underlying health issues, just a suggestion but one of the best ways to keep your health up is to reduce inflammation and increase glutathione. Antioxidants are essential but glutathione is especially important. You can do this with foods and health fats which some in a lot of food and even good old EVOO.


Should have also noted Phosphatidyl Choline as it is one of the best supplements for liver health. Again, not taken year round - take it for a few months and off for a few months.

Terrific point on the inflammation. That's one reason why I medadose the melatonin but glutathione is a good one too. However I'd have to find an injectable version and I haven't found one at a price that I like.
I suppose I could brew my own.


As for the choline... It's amazing what the cocktail can do. I started this protocol on myself and it worked so well that I've had dozens of my clients and friends on it also for a number of reasons.
For me I had NAFLD which I got rid of in 5 weeks (likely less but blood work was 5 weeks apart) by using:
2g NAC
1g inositol
1g choline
1g methionine
Add milk thistle if you want
All daily doses.

But even if you don't have fatty liver... I have any competitors or clients who want to cut fat do this protocol and it just primes the fuck out of your liver to help the fat burn off. This 30 days is also a great time to bring down the person's insulin resistance so that you can diet them using carbs versus low carb or keto which I avoid if I can.

 

[Moscovium]

Excessive to you and your goals perhaps.

But what exactly on my list is filler that could be taken off? Niacin maybe, EAA dose could come down, Beet Root could come down.
I don't find it that crazy when u go thru it.
It looks like a lot bc I take almost everything individually to control the variables rather than taking an "organ health product" for example.


Terrific point on the inflammation. That's one reason why I medadose the melatonin but glutathione is a good one too. However I'd have to find an injectable version and I haven't found one at a price that I like.
I suppose I could brew my own.


As for the choline... It's amazing what the cocktail can do. I started this protocol on myself and it worked so well that I've had dozens of my clients and friends on it also for a number of reasons.
For me I had NAFLD which I got rid of in 5 weeks (likely less but blood work was 5 weeks apart) by using:
2g NAC
1g inositol
1g choline
1g methionine
Add milk thistle if you want
All daily doses.

But even if you don't have fatty liver... I have any competitors or clients who want to cut fat do this protocol and it just primes the fuck out of your liver to help the fat burn off. This 30 days is also a great time to bring down the person's insulin resistance so that you can diet them using carbs versus low carb or keto which I avoid if I can.

Yes currently excessive for my own goals.

The point I was trying to make seems to have gone over your head slightly. Let’s revisit that point for just a second I’ll rephrase. Try not to get caught up in fancy protocols, be it supplements, enhancements, etc. Keep things simple.

Also just occurred to me. There is something else I’d like to address in this post and I think it’s an important one too. Since I am new and dont know everyone well, do you mind sharing with the rest of the group what makes you qualified to coach competitors? More importantly, have you spent any time on stage yourself?

Let me just be clear when I say stage I mean in a bodybuilding competition setting not playing the clarinet in front of your elementary school when you were 5.

 

[ironwill]

I think what you may be referring to is that raising Ur hdl while on cycle thru more aerobic cardio, niacin etc. Doesn't help anything at all except looks pretty on paper. It didn't lower mortality rate or rate of future heart issues.
What does work is lowering LDL if it's high (which is very easy), and decreasing Ur hdl to LDL ratio. But for instance with me my LDL is always fine.. Never high. But my hdl goes low when I'm running dht drugs typically. If I just tried to raise my hdl alone... There's no point at all. Assuming that I'm already exercising and not going from Ur typical lazy asshole on the couch to doing daily cardio. That of course helps but the niacin to raise hdl is a waste of time.

Hdl/ ldl and triglycerides. Are much more important than temporary hdl ldl being out of range. C reactive protein also more important to longevity and heart health. New info coming out is strong in this regard

 

[Goldenrod]

Excessive to you and your goals perhaps.

But what exactly on my list is filler that could be taken off? Niacin maybe, EAA dose could come down, Beet Root could come down.
I don't find it that crazy when u go thru it.
It looks like a lot bc I take almost everything individually to control the variables rather than taking an "organ health product" for example.


Terrific point on the inflammation. That's one reason why I medadose the melatonin but glutathione is a good one too. However I'd have to find an injectable version and I haven't found one at a price that I like.
I suppose I could brew my own.


As for the choline... It's amazing what the cocktail can do. I started this protocol on myself and it worked so well that I've had dozens of my clients and friends on it also for a number of reasons.
For me I had NAFLD which I got rid of in 5 weeks (likely less but blood work was 5 weeks apart) by using:
2g NAC
1g inositol
1g choline
1g methionine
Add milk thistle if you want
All daily doses.

But even if you don't have fatty liver... I have any competitors or clients who want to cut fat do this protocol and it just primes the fuck out of your liver to help the fat burn off. This 30 days is also a great time to bring down the person's insulin resistance so that you can diet them using carbs versus low carb or keto which I avoid if I can.

You were diagnosed with fatty liver with blood tests? That is the first step to indicate a liver issue but no blood tests that I know of can guarantee fatty liver - I'm referring to specialists I dealt with. What doctor is able to see through your body with the naked eye to see what is causing the elevated enzymes? GGT may be elevated and an indication (over an extended period - months but is also an indication you drink a lot) you may have fatty liver but two drinks will raise your GGT too. The latter statement is me regurgitating what two doctors told me - I do not know that for fact. Doctors diagnose fatty liver with ultrasounds but a CT scan or a MRI would no doubt do the same.
I would love to chat with the radiologist who scanned your liver and said you had fatty liver and then 5 weeks later did it again and said you don't. Unless there is a new blood test available to diagnose fatty liver which I don't exists, I have no idea why they bother with diagnostic imaging. There are also a ton of people walking around with minor fatty liver with perfect liver enzymes.
You think you got rid of fatty liver in 4-5 weeks? The list of supplements make sense but I don't believe it unless a radiologist showed me the imaging.

Oral gluathione is pretty much useless. SAM-e and NAC will keep your glutathione raised. In many countries they still use oral NAC for Acetaminophen poisoning if they don't have access to IV NAC. You can get IV glutathione from some naturopaths.
Maybe you are an anomaly but if a doctor diagnosed you with fatty liver off liver enzymes alone, I suspect they should rethink their medical practices. I do not think I know more than doctors but when it comes to something like this, you can not be diagnosed without imaging.
if I misunderstood your statement, please explain.
thanks,
GR

 

[Synyster]

You were diagnosed with fatty liver with blood tests? That is the first step to indicate a liver issue but no blood tests that I know of can guarantee fatty liver - I'm referring to specialists I dealt with. What doctor is able to see through your body with the naked eye to see what is causing the elevated enzymes? GGT may be elevated and an indication (over an extended period - months but is also an indication you drink a lot) you may have fatty liver but two drinks will raise your GGT too. The latter statement is me regurgitating what two doctors told me - I do not know that for fact. Doctors diagnose fatty liver with ultrasounds but a CT scan or a MRI would no doubt do the same.
I would love to chat with the radiologist who scanned your liver and said you had fatty liver and then 5 weeks later did it again and said you don't. Unless there is a new blood test available to diagnose fatty liver which I don't exists, I have no idea why they bother with diagnostic imaging. There are also a ton of people walking around with minor fatty liver with perfect liver enzymes.
You think you got rid of fatty liver in 4-5 weeks? The list of supplements make sense but I don't believe it unless a radiologist showed me the imaging.

Oral gluathione is pretty much useless. SAM-e and NAC will keep your glutathione raised. In many countries they still use oral NAC for Acetaminophen poisoning if they don't have access to IV NAC. You can get IV glutathione from some naturopaths.
Maybe you are an anomaly but if a doctor diagnosed you with fatty liver off liver enzymes alone, I suspect they should rethink their medical practices. I do not think I know more than doctors but when it comes to something like this, you can not be diagnosed without imaging.
if I misunderstood your statement, please explain.
thanks,
GR

I was diagnosed without imaging. But it was first done due to elevated enzymes, changing body composition fairly abruptly that I'd never experienced before, rise in BP that I'd never experienced before and maybe some spider veins also although that could be from other circulatory issues I have.
Which brought on a liver biopsy that developed into the actual diagnosis.
But to be honest, 5 weeks later I was not biopsies again. I simply redid my bloodwork and had a vast improvement in live values... A large drop in BP. Stomach swelling was gone (could've been diet related also). And the negative trajectory my body composition was taking was stopped in its tracks. Making me able to begin losing weight and gaining muscle fairly successfully a few weeks later.

 

[Bigbear]

I was diagnosed without imaging. But it was first done due to elevated enzymes, changing body composition fairly abruptly that I'd never experienced before, rise in BP that I'd never experienced before and maybe some spider veins also although that could be from other circulatory issues I have.
Which brought on a liver biopsy that developed into the actual diagnosis.
But to be honest, 5 weeks later I was not biopsies again. I simply redid my bloodwork and had a vast improvement in live values... A large drop in BP. Stomach swelling was gone (could've been diet related also). And the negative trajectory my body composition was taking was stopped in its tracks. Making me able to begin losing weight and gaining muscle fairly successfully a few weeks later.

That's spider veins in the chest rib cage area eh?

 

[Bigbear]

I think that might even negatively effect cholesterol too

 

[Synyster]

Yes currently excessive for my own goals.

The point I was trying to make seems to have gone over your head slightly. Let’s revisit that point for just a second I’ll rephrase. Try not to get caught up in fancy protocols, be it supplements, enhancements, etc. Keep things simple.

Also just occurred to me. There is something else I’d like to address in this post and I think it’s an important one too. Since I am new and dont know everyone well, do you mind sharing with the rest of the group what makes you qualified to coach competitors? More importantly, have you spent any time on stage yourself?

Let me just be clear when I say stage I mean in a bodybuilding competition setting not playing the clarinet in front of your elementary school when you were 5.

Personally I do this for results. So I'll do what gets me the best results for the lifestyle I live and amount of effort/sacrifice I'm willing to put in.

There's nothing wrong with the simple approach. It's easy. If you're a simple person then it works even better. But none of the supplements I've posted are particularly difficult to comprehend what they do. Same for more complicated steroid cycles that I prefer to use which work on multiple pathways rather than hammering the AR with a giant sledgehammer.

As far as me being qualified to be a coach. I'd say I'm qualified because I've been studying this stuff since the 90s, taking on clients formally since 2006, and have a relatively low turnover rate with my clients.
Have I been on the bodybuilding stage? No. I'm personally coming from a sports background then transitioned to powerlifting with a quick dabble in strongman, which I've competed in both. I would have LOVED to be able to compete in bodybuilding.
The world is full of examples of coaches who never competed so clearly that's a not a good point.
I will say, the majority of my clients are regular civilians that only require the "simple approach" so a supplement stack for them rarely goes past vitastack, Vit d, melatonin, and ubiquenol. But I'd greatly prefer more competitors and athletes so I could use more of the detailed approach I prefer.

 

[Synyster]

That's spider veins in the chest rib cage area eh?

Mine were upper thigh which is another thing pointing towards it being unrelated but I never got a clear answer from doctor what they were from

 

[Goldenrod]

I was diagnosed without imaging. But it was first done due to elevated enzymes, changing body composition fairly abruptly that I'd never experienced before, rise in BP that I'd never experienced before and maybe some spider veins also although that could be from other circulatory issues I have.
Which brought on a liver biopsy that developed into the actual diagnosis.
But to be honest, 5 weeks later I was not biopsies again. I simply redid my bloodwork and had a vast improvement in live values... A large drop in BP. Stomach swelling was gone (could've been diet related also). And the negative trajectory my body composition was taking was stopped in its tracks. Making me able to begin losing weight and gaining muscle fairly successfully a few weeks later.

Thanks for clarifying.