Trans Athletes in Women’s Powerlifting

Musclemaker said:
Actually there aren’t. A person has either XX or XY. Along with that there are sub variants that are considered uncommon or out of the norm, but the base structure is always XX or XY, there is no XG or CY etc. etc..
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With all due respect I would have thought you would have put in more effort before digging your heels in.

Bottom line is you are wrong. Even if you were not your arguement doesn't work;

M: If they’re classed by gender which is determined by chromosomes present there would be 2 divisions.
G: This is simply not true. Although very rare there are several other chromosomal combinations that occour in humans
M: Actually there aren’t. A person has either XX or XY. Along with that there are sub variants that are considered uncommon or out of the norm...

Re "Along with that there are sub variants that are considered uncommon or out of the norm" -
isn't that what I just said? How can you possibly argue that both these sides support the same conclusion?

Re "A person has either XX or XY" and "the base structure is always XX or XY, there is no XG or CY etc. etc.." -
Again, not true. IDK about XG or CY so I'd guess you just made those up or something to illustrate your point. I do know about X , 45,XO , YY , 45X/46Y , XXY and more.

Google term "X and Y chromosome variations" for a shitton of science based links compete with pictures.
Here's some less sciency articles that can be self supported out of the rabbit hole opened by googling as above -


www.theglobeandmail.com

Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again

Humans like to see other humans neatly labelled as male or female. But biology is much less precise, and much more fluid
www.theglobeandmail.com www.theglobeandmail.com
www.livescience.com

Chromosomes: Definition & Structure

Chromosomes carry our basic genetic material.
www.livescience.com www.livescience.com
 
@Musclemaker and @allyall
FYI post #95 was the last one visible to me when I started the post above this one, some of what i said might be redundant or not quite fit the flow of the conversation
 
Musclemaker said:
Again, just like you stated above, the base structure is either XX or XY. Male or female.

I can never understand why people are so quick to throw science, biology and common sense out the window when it comes to this subject (and many others).
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I’m not disagreeing with you. I listed a few example of abnormalities just to hear your opinion on where these people would fit into the 2 division system, male and female.

CoolRick said:
To be quite frank, why does everyone need to fit in somewhere? Theres so little of these abnormalities it's not relevant to most people.
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The simple answer would be to say they can’t compete. But we live in a society where everyone *should* have equal opportunity. Just trying to see what people’s take is on these abnormalities. Just because it’s rare doesn’t mean we should throw it away completely. Being said, we shouldn’t make rules around the minority, rather situational exceptions.
I ask because I don’t have the answer, and don’t know what the solution would be for these people.

Very off-topic on the transgender issue of course, but I think these topics can have some sort of relevance to each other.
 
Rolls roydz said:
True, but also trust me. I have a family member who has a macho father and no matter what he tries the kid is happy with Barbie and pink stuff. That’s why I find this so interesting. Will this kid be repressed all his life? That I don’t know, god! What am I going to do when I have my own ones 😅
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I have gay family members. They went through hell when they were younger. I remember talking to my cousin ( he's still in the closet at 30) and him telling me that he prayed everyday so he could wake up straight or not wake up at all.

The man became a doctor to please his father in hopes one day he  might be accepted for what he truly is.

Knowing how conservative my family is, there is a very slim chance of that happening but believe me... He does not want to be gay and it's definitely not a choice.
 
DaveTbk said:
I have gay family members. They went through hell when they were younger. I remember talking to my cousin ( he's still in the closet at 30) and him telling me that he prayed everyday so he could wake up straight or not wake up at all.

The man became a doctor to please his father in hopes one day he  might be accepted for what he truly is.

Knowing how conservative my family is, there is a very slim chance of that happening but believe me... He does not want to be gay and it's definitely not a choice.
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When did this thread become about homosexuality lol
 
Trenbolone&Cheese said:
The simple answer would be to say they can’t compete. But we live in a society where everyone *should* have equal opportunity. Just trying to see what people’s take is on these abnormalities. Just because it’s rare doesn’t mean we should throw it away completely. Being said, we shouldn’t make rules around the minority, rather situational exceptions.
I ask because I don’t have the answer, and don’t know what the solution would be for these people.

Very off-topic on the transgender issue of course, but I think these topics can have some sort of relevance to each other.
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Ahh idealism. The reality is opportunity is given to those ready and capable, it is not a birthright.

I'm not saying this with a lack of compassion but hardly anyone cares. Now if you get a bunch of psychopaths with money on board and a nice sales pitch maybe they'll turn it into a product for sale.

Without the big money and influence this transgender topic wouldn't even be a thing. But god damn, it makes BIG money.
 
Sorbate said:
My grandson is at the age now, and trust me unless someone if feeling like they don’t belong they don’t get anything pushed on them so much they change their mind and become trans.

I asked my grandson about this, and he says they don’t push it per say, but just tell them if they want to talk they can, and that others shouldn’t pick on them over it.

He doesn’t know of a single trans kid in his school.

Now in his school nothing is pushed, his teacher is gay, and the kids only know because she had mentioned that her wife and her were doing something, but nothing else was said. There isn’t flags everywhere (only one on her desk).
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That sounds like a solid school

I have friends who have kids and have a much different story

I have a friend who lives in Trenton.
He is an air force pilot
His child in grade 1
In grade 1 class a kid said he is a cat
Identifies as one
The parent of said kid don’t Know
The teacher has a little box in the class for the kid

i have many examples of young kids being told that a boy doesn’t mean your a boy or whatever the fuck

For example
When I was in school 15 years ago none of this was happening
Yes there were gay kids who you knew were gay in 1 second and guess what they end up coming out the closet and being which is great for them
But there was never all This pronoun gender shit

Fuck even LinkedIn for TD makes you put he/him she/her

Don’t sit here and tell me it’s not pushed down your throats

TLDR
My rant is it’s much much more pushed in the last few years then ever before causing some distortion in very young easily influenced kids
 
@FitTrader yeah, it’s somehow a derailment but it is not lol. I mean, these are choices and social conducts that have been secluded for years, so somehow their are correlated.

As soon as you put the word trans or gay in a thread it will go to hell 😂
 
Negan said:
Physical advantages are generalizations they exist but they're not universal. The real differences exist at the extremes that live on the edge of the bell curve. A professional female fighter could beat almost all men her weight at fighting because she is a uniquely tough woman but a professional male fighter would beat her easily because he is an exceptionally tough man but there is a lot of overlap inside that curve.

My original opinion was that trans women should not complete with women because of genetic advantages but in life there are other physical advantages that exist beyond sex. Any elite athlete has genetic advantages that are "unfair" to the other competitors Ed Coan was the greatest powerlifter of all time because of his unique body proportions.
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Physical advantages are real. Not generalizations. Men have way bigger bones and density. Thats why its dangerous if a man fights in womens mma they can literally break bones in the face. They are not on the same playing field unless its curling. Even golf the women cant compete with men. I dont know how or why you can even argue that.
Saying a professional women's fighter can beat an average man is a cool story, but doesn't mean anything. A slightly trained man will beat the pro woman....lol
 
FitTrader said:
That sounds like a solid school

I have friends who have kids and have a much different story

I have a friend who lives in Trenton.
He is an air force pilot
His child in grade 1
In grade 1 class a kid said he is a cat
Identifies as one
The parent of said kid don’t Know
The teacher has a little box in the class for the kid

i have many examples of young kids being told that a boy doesn’t mean your a boy or whatever the fuck

For example
When I was in school 15 years ago none of this was happening
Yes there were gay kids who you knew were gay in 1 second and guess what they end up coming out the closet and being which is great for them
But there was never all This pronoun gender shit

Fuck even LinkedIn for TD makes you put he/him she/her

Don’t sit here and tell me it’s not pushed down your throats

TLDR
My rant is it’s much much more pushed in the last few years then ever before causing some distortion in very young easily influenced kids
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That is why we send him to this school.
 
Cheapshot said:
Physical advantages are real. Not generalizations. Men have way bigger bones and density. Thats why its dangerous if a man fights in womens mma they can literally break bones in the face. They are not on the same playing field unless its curling. Even golf the women cant compete with men. I dont know how or why you can even argue that.
Saying a professional women's fighter can beat an average man is a cool story, but doesn't mean anything. A slightly trained man will beat the pro woman....lol
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Says something is not a generalization...uses a generalized statement. 😂 The fact is most men are generally bigger but some women are fucking huge. There are also general differences among race giving some physical advantages over another and some individuals have unique body differences that give them advantages in sport which is the point used in the decision making process or at least the case I was reading about when I looked into it.
 
Negan said:
Says something is not a generalization...uses a generalized statement. 😂 The fact is most men are generally bigger but some women are fucking huge. There are also general differences among race giving some physical advantages over another and some individuals have unique body differences that give them advantages in sport which is the point used in the decision making process or at least the case I was reading about when I looked into it.
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the thing i think is being overlooked is we’re talking about trained, competitive athletes in powerlifting. we can say it’s generalized, but if a trans woman is gifted enough to be the best woman’s powerlifter, it’s kinda concerning. The top women in powerlifting can’t hold a candle to men’s powerlifting. These are the best of the best, these women have the best genetics for their sport. we’re talking about world record holders. to think we could have so many years of women training and perfecting powerlifting to have their records crushed by that one trans woman kinda speaks volume. i personally know natty dudes in their early 20s who would smash every woman’s wr. once you start taking hormones to transition, you don’t just instantly lose everything you had before. with the way it currently is, they could hop on hormones, lose some strength yes, but even if they lost 200lbs on their deadlift for example they would still take the record. the conversation is about integrity in a competitive environment, not your average person walking their dog.
 
Negan said:
Says something is not a generalization...uses a generalized statement. 😂 The fact is most men are generally bigger but some women are fucking huge. There are also general differences among race giving some physical advantages over another and some individuals have unique body differences that give them advantages in sport which is the point used in the decision making process or at least the case I was reading about when I looked into it.
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Most men are bigger then women? I never said anything about size of the bodys. Look at a skeleton of a woman vs man. Are you really saying everything is equal physically? Or just trolling at this point?
 
Cheapshot said:
Most men are bigger then women? I never said anything about size of the bodys. Look at a skeleton of a woman vs man. Are you really saying everything is equal physically? Or just trolling at this point?
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No, I'm saying that some women have skeletal structures bigger than some men which if this is a deciding factor in something like you indicated it was than those women have genetic advantages over other women, obviously this is not the only genetic trait that could give someone an advantage in a given sport but there are genetic advantages inside the subset of women and those women aren't prevented from competition but those women are dominant in their sport because of genetic advantages they possess. Nobody is equal, everyone is an individual with differences.
 
Trenbolone&Cheese said:
the thing i think is being overlooked is we’re talking about trained, competitive athletes in powerlifting. we can say it’s generalized, but if a trans woman is gifted enough to be the best woman’s powerlifter, it’s kinda concerning. The top women in powerlifting can’t hold a candle to men’s powerlifting. These are the best of the best, these women have the best genetics for their sport. we’re talking about world record holders. to think we could have so many years of women training and perfecting powerlifting to have their records crushed by that one trans woman kinda speaks volume. i personally know natty dudes in their early 20s who would smash every woman’s wr. once you start taking hormones to transition, you don’t just instantly lose everything you had before. with the way it currently is, they could hop on hormones, lose some strength yes, but even if they lost 200lbs on their deadlift for example they would still take the record. the conversation is about integrity in a competitive environment, not your average person walking their dog.
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I've met zero natty dudes that could smash woman's world records in powerlifting and a trans woman is less than natty, they take androgen blockers and estrogen. Female equipped deadlift record is like 700lbs, squat is 880, bench is over 600.

Raw is a little different but they are super impressive and only her deadlift.ans total is a wr
1000006995.png
 
Negan said:
No, I'm saying that some women have skeletal structures bigger than some men which if this is a deciding factor in something like you indicated it was than those women have genetic advantages over other women, obviously this is not the only genetic trait that could give someone an advantage in a given sport but there are genetic advantages inside the subset of women and those women aren't prevented from competition but those women are dominant in their sport because of genetic advantages they possess. Nobody is equal, everyone is an individual with differences.
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Ya they aren't prevented from competition because they are actually women.
 
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