You are correct, there is a lot of unintelligent people.
Abnormal PED usage
- Thread starter Goldenrod
- Start date
No idea if I will regret it later in life but I do not exceed 250 mg a week of combined PED's (plus periodic use of peptides and script HGH). No one can convince me this is not enough. If that was the case, why would anyone ever take creatine or intra / pre / post workout products as none can hold a candle to 150 mg of Deca/NPP or Primo (two of my favourite compounds) added to TRT.
I am not looking for a medal but I never exceeded 500 mg on an 8 week pyramid cycle when I was younger 200, 300, 400, 500, 400, 300, 200, 100 (done). Not looking for a pat on the back, just what all the doormen and private security guys I worked with did a few times a year. In 8 weeks you could get a boost and push through weight you couldn't otherwise/add some extra size and if you were smart keep a decent amount of it - there was no PCT as the availability was not there.
It was typically one compound and life was not like it is today. We simply did not do large dosages and I suspect that is why I respond well to 150 mg of another compound over a 3-4 month period.
No questions high dosage - bigger muscles / stronger, etc. There is enough data to show bodybuilding ends in health issues when guys push it. Well known body builders and not so well known body builders and mortality earlier than expected.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Also read many people had hearts / livers twice the normal weight/size that a person of that age/weight should have.
I am conservative but the first to admit I love 150 mg of Primo and 2 IU of script HGH on top of TRT - no question I am stronger, have better workouts and recover quicker than the regular 100 mg of TRT.
This never ending increasing dosages or adding another compound in order for this cycle to be as good as the last is complete dangerous and not required especially for the average guy who doesn't make money on their body / they pay to get it.
Just another perspective - for guys reaching for the golden apple: I don't think you can do it in the same manner as I describe but I am not reaching for the golden apple of stage / standing on a podium.
I am not looking for a medal but I never exceeded 500 mg on an 8 week pyramid cycle when I was younger 200, 300, 400, 500, 400, 300, 200, 100 (done). Not looking for a pat on the back, just what all the doormen and private security guys I worked with did a few times a year. In 8 weeks you could get a boost and push through weight you couldn't otherwise/add some extra size and if you were smart keep a decent amount of it - there was no PCT as the availability was not there.
It was typically one compound and life was not like it is today. We simply did not do large dosages and I suspect that is why I respond well to 150 mg of another compound over a 3-4 month period.
No questions high dosage - bigger muscles / stronger, etc. There is enough data to show bodybuilding ends in health issues when guys push it. Well known body builders and not so well known body builders and mortality earlier than expected.
Premature Death in Bodybuilders: What Do We Know? - PMC
Premature deaths in bodybuilders regularly make headlines and are cited as evidence that bodybuilding is a dangerous activity. A wealth of research has revealed elite athletes typically enjoy lower mortality rates than non-athletes, but research on ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I am conservative but the first to admit I love 150 mg of Primo and 2 IU of script HGH on top of TRT - no question I am stronger, have better workouts and recover quicker than the regular 100 mg of TRT.
This never ending increasing dosages or adding another compound in order for this cycle to be as good as the last is complete dangerous and not required especially for the average guy who doesn't make money on their body / they pay to get it.
Just another perspective - for guys reaching for the golden apple: I don't think you can do it in the same manner as I describe but I am not reaching for the golden apple of stage / standing on a podium.
@BanditNOLIMIT , I thought this was a really good post that made me pause and really think about the issue.
I'm not saying anything here about you personally, just my musing on what I think is a really important question that you highlighted
I’m no PED or bodybuilding expert, so feel free to stop reading here if that doesn't sit with you.
I do have decades of risk-management experience in high‑consequence, risk‑averse industries.
And I see a lot of parallels here and think it's an honest way to frame this discussion.
Everyone would agree all sports carry risk. Something like skydiving or motorcycle racing has obvious hazards that escalate based on behavior and gear choices.
Bodybuilding, especially at the competitive end, looks more like a chronic exposure hazard than a probabilistic event risk problem.
In high‑consequence industries, the worst hazards are often cumulative, normalized, and easy to ignore until the damage is already done. Radiation exposure, heavy metals, solvent contact, pollutants, asbestos, even deep‑sea diving all share that pattern.
A person can look fine for a long time while the exposure burden quietly climbs to a threshold.
In high‑reliability industries, there’s a dangerous insidious cultural defect called 'normalization of deviance'.
That’s what I think a lot of people posting in this thread are reacting to. Not telling people what to do or not to do, but calling out extreme practices so they don't become normalized.
There is rarely a neat line where one exposure is “reasonable” on one side and “dangerous” on the other. In practice, the line is drawn when the exposure profile starts producing a steadily worsening risk curve. Generating those curves requires data.
Whether you’re talking about radiation exposure, hypoxia...
or endocrine suppression, blood pressure, lipid damage, cardiac remodeling, kidney strain, or psychiatric effects, at some point you’re no longer talking about a clean athletic tradeoff, You’re talking about managed harm.
In other high‑risk domains, the real question is not whether the activity has risk, but whether the controls are adequate and the residual risk is still defensible. Nobody would say past asbestos or chronic radiation exposure is harmless because the person feels fine today.
I think the same logic applies here. A person with normal tests and decent performance can still be accumulating long‑term risk.
Can you quantify it? I think partly.
I find this forum amazing at how involved people are in their own health.
Monitoring blood pressure, glucose, lipids, kidney function, liver enzymes, ECG, echocardiography and imaging. But those are surveillance tools and lagging indicators. They tell you where the body stands right now, not whether the exposure is sustainable or for how long cumulatively.
In that sense, health metrics are necessary but not sufficient.
So if I had to draw the line, for myself I'd look at the level of pharma and physiological exposure that would generate a risk profile that would be considered reckless in any other high‑consequence setting.
I believe Open is there already.
Once the regimen depends on repeated escalation just to maintain competitiveness, the risk is no longer incidental. It has become part of the sport’s operating model.
That doesn’t mean every competitor is reckless. It does mean the burden of proof should be on anyone claiming the risk is low, because the available evidence I've seen suggests otherwise.
I believe the sport should be responsible for producing and publishing detailed statistical analysis reports so that people have the information available to make informed risk assessments for themselves. Without that data, no one can even see the curve.
Like alcohol, late nights, and fast food, we all do things that may shorten our lives because quality of life matters more than living like an austere monk just to gain a few extra years. But it doesn’t help anyone to pretend that it isn’t harmful, to ignore the evidence, or worse, delude ourselves and others into believing no harm is being done so we can sleep better at night.
That's why I think this thread is so important.
thanks to @Goldenrod for creating this thread all the posters contributing to it.
I've learned a lot.
@biguglynewf You know where I'm coming from on this.
let me know where I'm off base.
Cheers.
>normalization of deviance
pretty sure I've been doing this to my wife for years lol. Very interesting perspective @Heraclitus . I try to apply a risk vs reward calculus to any consequential decision in my life, including PEDs.
Seeing as I'm not a pro, the reward side of the equation is always going to be too low for me to really push things, while the risk side is increasing the older I get.
Anyone who's been around might have noticed that I make a post every so often about how much I appreciate this board. I logged on just now to make another one because I've been thinking for a few days about the high value and quality of discussion in some threads.
There have been so many well thought out posts whether just a quick quip, a commentary on the human condition, a supportive note of encouragement or enlightening science. I was challenged by how to describe that or how to point some out without leaving anybody out.
Hopefully I just did that well enough but damn this is a great time and place to speak those thoughts. I certainly agree with the points presented but am blown away by the writing, an as masterfully composed op-ed as I've ever seen.
Slow Clap to everyone of you meatheads who ever post here and keep me so interested in what I love and coming back daily.
Definitely wish this thread was around when I first started out. Much more of a balanced sample of some really intelligent and frankly caring opinions and guidance that everyone can benefit from but especially newbies.
What was normal in my friend group was ridiculously excessive but those were my "norms". Having a sounding board like this would have really allowed me to be more responsible and future oriented while realizing a little goes a long way.
What a great thread
What was normal in my friend group was ridiculously excessive but those were my "norms". Having a sounding board like this would have really allowed me to be more responsible and future oriented while realizing a little goes a long way.
What a great thread
Excellent post. I love this kind of framing.
It's not that testing shouldn't be done but that it's a snapshot in a dynamic system. By the time the damage is done it's too late, hence my criticism towards the attitude of some towards blood and testing as basically being"fluff". It's the opinions of people championing testing and what not as a way to justify what is "right" that bugs me yet statistically speaking the odds are not in a (modern) competitive bodybuilder's favor no matter what they do. It screams junkie justifying their addiction vs mitigating risk or should I say accepting the risks and their shortened life span. It's misleading to the uninitiated to say the least.
I'd dare to not even pin all of this on the PEDs themselves. I bet dollars to donuts a smaller person using PEDs will on average live longer than a 250lb+ mass monster. Those organs are working twice as hard as a normal person even at rest. I'd also say it's not only the duration of the drugs but also the duration of being that size.
People used to come off, they'd "grow" into the show so to speak. Now? Year round drugs, no coming off, all the testing and "wonder" ancillaries and the bodies are piling up. Clearly testing isn't helping them.
It pains me to say the bodybuilding I fell in love with (60s, 70s era) is long gone. The art is gone and it's just one giant chemical freakshow/ circus act that I'll never understand.
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Rookie numbers, add 100mg Halo for pre workout aggression as well
I’m here scared of 10mg
No
a popular coach Shelby starns gives 100mg superdrol to his clients quite often.
t sure how I handled it. Never again though lol.
a popular coach Shelby starns gives 100mg superdrol to his clients quite often.
Imagine that! Shitting out organs one after the next. GNC had it pulled off the shelves because of compilations 20yrs ago
Is this the same popular female BB coach. In one contest one of his students died.
Some of the comments in the article:
"
Her American coach, Shelby Starnes, wasn’t there — he rarely attended shows. But shortly after Kosinova died, Starnes received an alarming email from another client, Jodie Engle.
The 30-year-old single mother wrote that she had been hospitalized and might need open-heart surgery. Doctors blamed the diuretics she said she’d been advised to use for more than a week leading into the NPC National Championships in Florida.
Engle won first place in her division and earned a “pro card,” allowing her to compete professionally. But the price she paid was steep: tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills and, doctors told her, she would eventually need a kidney transplant."
Unless my reading is incorrect - due to its incredible liver toxicity a 4 week cycle of 20 mg is considered good. It is noted not to be mixed with winstrol, and many other steroids due to their toxicity. The guys who use Superdrol can correct me if I am wrong, but most of the usage is around 10-20 mg per day.
20-40 is typical, im running 15. Never said he didn’t tell clients to abuse diuretics, said he told them to abuse superdrol
Ok going to sum this up.
@Tren4Evah you are an adult and what you choose to do is entirely up to you. All these guys are just warning you that there is always going to be some consequence later.
My biggest concern with a thread like this is a 15 year old reads this and thinks this is the right approach for them.
As far as pushing the limits unless you know you have the genetics to grow huge and are able to take large doses without too many sides then what’s the point. Really the main reason to get in shape is to get laid and really you don’t have to be in top shape to do that. I can attest to this.
We all want to look good and feel like a god but when you are risking decades of life to do it is it worth it ?
@Tren4Evah you are an adult and what you choose to do is entirely up to you. All these guys are just warning you that there is always going to be some consequence later.
My biggest concern with a thread like this is a 15 year old reads this and thinks this is the right approach for them.
As far as pushing the limits unless you know you have the genetics to grow huge and are able to take large doses without too many sides then what’s the point. Really the main reason to get in shape is to get laid and really you don’t have to be in top shape to do that. I can attest to this.
We all want to look good and feel like a god but when you are risking decades of life to do it is it worth it ?
Thanks. This is really all that needed to be said. I like youOk going to sum this up.
@Tren4Evah you are an adult and what you choose to do is entirely up to you. All these guys are just warning you that there is always going to be some consequence later.
My biggest concern with a thread like this is a 15 year old reads this and thinks this is the right approach for them.
As far as pushing the limits unless you know you have the genetics to grow huge and are able to take large doses without too many sides then what’s the point. Really the main reason to get in shape is to get laid and really you don’t have to be in top shape to do that. I can attest to this.
We all want to look good and feel like a god but when you are risking decades of life to do it is it worth it ?
I always say it sad when I’m the voice of reason.Thanks. This is really all that needed to be said. I like you
Sure but Shelby has told people to do all kinds of fucking stupid things!
Cough cough diuretics
Bun you should get that cough looked at. I’m still offer free prostate exams in my home lab (dungeon).