Muscles are still materials, theres still molecules forming structures, and they still have material properties.
Pretty sure I remember you from somewhere a while back, good to see you active again Sir.
Good thread. So many comments I could have made as it progressed due to not agreeing with many points or feeling like they were slightly off base so wanting to clarify. Love the subject matter though but just too busy rn to throw myself into it, I'd want to pull studies and shit to back up my thoughts and I just don't have the time or energy. I respect that the nuances are important and the effort you've used to back up your reasoning, I love it, I've just not had the time to bring any issues I've had to the thread. To do so now seems onerous.
Last bunch of posts have prompted me to put up a few thoughts in point form though. I really can't commit to any longer convo rn so here's some thoughts and opinions.
- I think it's possible that your newfound gains seem to be so dramatic because of the subpar methodology used previously. IOW partly because the delta between ROM then and now is so large that it's almost like you started fresh. Thinking of ur BP example of stopping well above sternum contact.
- Don't forget the freak factor. Most of the pro's would look superior to the gen pop no matter what they did in the gym. Often what they preach now at that level doesn't seem to be necessarily what got them there. Semi relevant example iirc Kai Greene is an ROM extremist (LOL) but I'm pretty sure I've seen him doing DB preacher curls using only about the top 40% ROM. The video of jay is another example he mentions locking the elbow a few times but when he demos the reps he is at least 15deg shy of locking.
- Re: materials elasticity. Living tissue has very different qualities than dead, this matters with respect to it's reaction to stress and it's hypertrophy response. This is an important part of the change of direction of mass stuff too.
-If a muscle is shortening under load it's working, I can see the benefits of emphasizing the stretch but other than in situations when you are trying to purposely take load away from another muscle it appears you are missing out on some stimulation of the target muscle. The Smith BP video you posted says the same I believe. Whether you feel it or not is almost immaterial, frankly this is bothersome to me because I believe in the whole mind muscle connection thing so accepting it's minimal contribution is hard.
- One way I can see a stretch working for "
perceived" hypertrophy is through the fascia stretching. That's a very much debatable concept and I can't see it having a very big effect through exercise stretching. I bring it up because of my own anecdotal experience with a very painful "fascia planing" massage many many moons ago. Startling growth immediately.
- I believe in a deep stretch but not at the expense of the joints. For the longest time my hypertrophy recipe has been "just as much warmup as you need then 2 balls out sets, 1-2 movements per bodypart, roughly 2x a week" The warmup sets might include some sets of an easy 12-15 when you actually need to "warm up" or they might be as low as 1-3 reps with significantly sub maximal weights. Work sets 5-8 reps with last one coming very close to failure.
The warmup sets will have a relatively deep stretch, the work sets will hold back from the full stretch at the bottom when and where the joint might be compromised but otherwise form is identical.
-Eccentric. I'd love to throw about 20 papers up here that led me to my opinion below, I'd love it even more if some "name" somebody smarter than I would write an article expressing it better with all the correct terms and just enough science. I've taken a crack at it, the drafts could fill a dumpster if they were on paper lol.
Basically I think the biggest values from slightly slower eccentrics (with a measurable dead stop) come from two things.
First, they help to standardize what a rep looks like in a particular set. This is important when trying to measure
progressive resistance. Call bullshit reps what they are, cheat, partial etc.
Second is all the things that we mostly look at as physiotherapy but improve hypertrophy outcomes by many means which add up-
You could consider much of this as indirect but here are some of the effects of
Controlled lengthening of muscle tissue;
Upregulation of satellite cells, greater microtrauma, improved collagen synthesis in connective tissue, greater force production, improved tendon remodeling and alignment of cells (prevents bunching), improves all kinds of neuro functions including reinforcing pathways and adaptations to heavier load if loaded heavily. And maybe most importantly as already mentioned it does it more directly through the ways we are all more versed in (although not in a linear relationship with force production)
I emphasize
Controlled because of the posts about Jay's sloppy form and the peak velocity stuff, I've never done the deep dive into how that affects things, interesting stuff though.
Anyhoo, above all in this game individual needs, comfort and strategies rule all else so I wish y'all the best in getting to your goals.
