Cruising vs PCT

[Funnyman]

Then what happened? I'm following the PCT in Anabolics 11 with 2000 iu of HCG EOD, Enclomiphene 12.5mg twice daily and nolvadex 20mg twice daily. Has anyone followed this PCT from Anabolics 11 before and how did it work for you?

I did it with many hcg & nolvadex.
Then as the first few book came out, I added clomid and never like being sad from it.
I switched up again, hcg and arimidex or letro and was fine.
But after 30 plus years of cycling, you are bound to shut down.
But I out lived many old friends, and have great health to this day.
The close personal friends, that never did a pct would end up stop training or there depression was really bad from the shift in hormones.
In the end, people's choices don't effect me.

 

[DeeKnows]

What did you use for your PCT's. Did you try different variations and what one worked best for you? Thanks.

Yes different variations including nolva, clomid and hcg. I think nolva and hcg were a good combo, clomid works but the emotional rollercoaster was insane for me.

 

[Goldenrod]

Respectfully, I'm not looking for an argument. Pointing out a contrary viewpoint is part of normal discourse.
When people make bold statements like "PCT is useless", they should at least have some factual basis to them that they can hold some weight under scrutiny. The thread is called "Cruising vs PCT" after all.

I'm also not here to sell a particular ideology. If someone thinks they can simply and easily turn their fibrotic testicles back on like flipping a switch or don't need their balls anymore, by all means have at it.

Maybe this thread should be called: To chemically castrate or not chemically castrate . I see no good reason to not take care of them (testicles) otherwise.

Read this a second time if you plan to have kids and think taking HCG beside your TRT will save your testicles. Yes, it will help with the size but that does not mean they are also producing testosterone (because they don't have to), sperm, and even if you are producing sperm - unless analyzed under a microscope the morphology may be so bad they can't do a damn thing.

It is logical to use HCG with TRT to maintain as much testicular function as possible but it guarantees nothing. How many people have impregnated a woman in the middle or end of a large blast? I know many. How many people on TRT and HCG, can't get their wife pregnant even if hump like your life depends on it when she is ovulating? Again, I know many.

Interesting topic and everyone is different. If I could do it all over again, every time I touched testosterone I would use HCG, as it doesn't seem to raise my estrogen at all. Baby making time, I would rely on the educated guys on the forum vs. the specialists in fertility who were completely useless. SERMS / HMG / HCG - all helpful, but the question @CoolRick poses about fibrosis is something to consider. Medical literature says it is not the norm, but it can be severe or just minor.
Not arguing with anyone - something young people who plan to have a family later should read, from the older guys who have been through it. Unfortunately, back 20-30 years ago - you had to get many of the PCT / fertility medications from a doctor and most doctors, even specialists, knew next to nothing. People can get SERMS, ancillaries now through UGL's. It was not always thus.

 

[CoolRick]

Read this a second time if you plan to have kids and think taking HCG beside your TRT will save your testicles. Yes, it will help with the size but that does not mean they are also producing testosterone (because they don't have to), sperm, and even if you are producing sperm - unless analyzed under a microscope the morphology may be so bad they can't do a damn thing.

It is logical to use HCG with TRT to maintain as much testicular function as possible but it guarantees nothing. How many people have impregnated a woman in the middle or end of a large blast? I know many. How many people on TRT and HCG, can't get their wife pregnant even if hump like your life depends on it when she is ovulating? Again, I know many.

Interesting topic and everyone is different. If I could do it all over again, every time I touched testosterone I would use HCG, as it doesn't seem to raise my estrogen at all. Baby making time, I would rely on the educated guys on the forum vs. the specialists in fertility who were completely useless. SERMS / HMG / HCG - all helpful, but the question @CoolRick poses about fibrosis is something to consider. Medical literature says it is not the norm, but it can be severe or just minor.
Not arguing with anyone - something young people who plan to have a family later should read, from the older guys who have been through it. Unfortunately, back 20-30 years ago - you had to get many of the PCT / fertility medications from a doctor and most doctors, even specialists, knew next to nothing. People can get SERMS, ancillaries now through UGL's. It was not always thus.

Good point on HCG efficacy. Yes in someone who has impaired testicular function they can blast them with 2000iu EOD and they may come back in size a bit but they may continue to underperform that an individual can't reliably use it alone for testosterone production. I will have to disagree however that testicular size has no bearing on output. It does and it's a sign of how well the leydig cells are responding to LH or LH analogues.

The ITT (intratesticular testosterone) alone may not be enough to stimulate quality sperm production as it doesn't cover FSH. My research indicates ITT does a lot including stimulating the sertoli cells enough to produce quality sperm which is why we see some docs give men just HCG with their TRT and they become fertile again. In any fertility or PCT stack HCG does the heavy lifting it appears. FSH seems to work to mature the sperm and help with their morphology.

Look at the doses typically used for HCG monotherapy (500-750 3x per week) vs PCT (1500 to 2000iu EOD or E3D) and you'll see the answer. Fibrosis of the testicles and/or oxidative stress impairs their ability to work over time. This is true for someone who cycles and does a PCT as well, it just takes more time to manifest. I believe this is why we see guys that no longer respond to HCG anymore hence the extremely high doses used in PCT protocols in an attempt to get them working again. Anything that causes hypogonadism can lead to fibrosis, opioid usage for instance and other medications give some people secondary hypogonadism and they'll need TRT.

My solution? Keep them working all the time. HCG will stimulate the testicles to work regardless of any other AAS. The goal is preservation of function. Kinda like a trickle charger on a battery. Let that battery go flat and the plates inside degrade faster leading to premature failure, keep it alive and it stays healthy for a long time.

I really hope the medical community starts to recognize what I'm saying here as it pertains to TRT. It's my opinion they have it backwards. Assuming someone has testicles, they should be doing what they can to maximize output from them first, if that's not sufficient then add exogenous testosterone on top to supplement the low output. This kind of methodology can be observed with treatments for thyroid, insulin deficiency etc. I'm not sure why it's not standard practice for the treatment of low testosterone.

 

[Mfg Eng]

I was fine until my early 50's, but i did enjoy my hcg I was like a rock star in bed.
But then again many don't like hcg lol.

Man we are old. Some of these guys are learning things we knew 30yrs ago. Funny how the body doesn't change much even after 30yrs! Those mid 80's guys blazed trail for us to know what medium term health results could be.

 

[Goldenrod]

Good point on HCG efficacy. Yes in someone who has impaired testicular function they can blast them with 2000iu EOD and they may come back in size a bit but they may continue to underperform that an individual can't reliably use it alone for testosterone production. I will have to disagree however that testicular size has no bearing on output. It does and it's a sign of how well the leydig cells are responding to LH or LH analogues.

The ITT (intratesticular testosterone) alone may not be enough to stimulate quality sperm production as it doesn't cover FSH. My research indicates ITT does a lot including stimulating the sertoli cells enough to produce quality sperm which is why we see some docs give men just HCG with their TRT and they become fertile again. In any fertility or PCT stack HCG does the heavy lifting it appears. FSH seems to work to mature the sperm and help with their morphology.

Look at the doses typically used for HCG monotherapy (500-750 3x per week) vs PCT (1500 to 2000iu EOD or E3D) and you'll see the answer. Fibrosis of the testicles and/or oxidative stress impairs their ability to work over time. This is true for someone who cycles and does a PCT as well, it just takes more time to manifest. I believe this is why we see guys that no longer respond to HCG anymore hence the extremely high doses used in PCT protocols in an attempt to get them working again. Anything that causes hypogonadism can lead to fibrosis, opioid usage for instance and other medications give some people secondary hypogonadism and they'll need TRT.

My solution? Keep them working all the time. HCG will stimulate the testicles to work regardless of any other AAS. The goal is preservation of function. Kinda like a trickle charger on a battery. Let that battery go flat and the plates inside degrade faster leading to premature failure, keep it alive and it stays healthy for a long time.

I really hope the medical community starts to recognize what I'm saying here as it pertains to TRT. It's my opinion they have it backwards. Assuming someone has testicles, they should be doing what they can to maximize output from them first, if that's not sufficient then add exogenous testosterone on top to supplement the low output. This kind of methodology can be observed with treatments for thyroid, insulin deficiency etc. I'm not sure why it's not standard practice for the treatment of low testosterone.

Morning @CoolRick - if I said testicular function and size is not related, it was an error or I wrote it incorrectly. It is an indicator of your testicles working / functioning correctly but I had large testicles and azoospermia so there is no guarantee. It took a long time for TRT to shrink my testicles. I was telling people to read what you wrote as I agree.
My point above was without something to help keep them working properly, even just a small amount of exogenous testosterone that your body does not produce, 'may' stop all testosterone and sperm production. That is not guess work, I have first hand experience with it. Now some doctors know this too but most have no idea about TRT and fertility.

Its one of the areas most younger gents don't think of when they get into bodybuilding, but do when they meet a woman who wants to have a family. I also strongly recommend tactical pants with built in protection or a cup if you work any security jobs. Injuries to the testes can result in impaired function. I had two such injuries, and even though I was checked out by a doctor, had an ultrasound and did a 'cup' test to make sure they were working, I suspect it took a while for impaired function to kick in but that is a guess.

 

[CoolRick]

Morning @CoolRick - if I said testicular function and size is not related, it was an error or I wrote it incorrectly. It is an indicator of your testicles working / functioning correctly but I had large testicles and azoospermia so there is no guarantee. It took a long time for TRT to shrink my testicles. I was telling people to read what you wrote as I agree.
My point above was without something to help keep them working properly, even just a small amount of exogenous testosterone that your body does not produce, 'may' stop all testosterone and sperm production. That is not guess work, I have first hand experience with it. Now some doctors know this too but most have no idea about TRT and fertility.

Its one of the areas most younger gents don't think of when they get into bodybuilding, but do when they meet a woman who wants to have a family. I also strongly recommend tactical pants with built in protection or a cup if you work any security jobs. Injuries to the testes can result in impaired function. I had two such injuries, and even though I was checked out by a doctor, had an ultrasound and did a 'cup' test to make sure they were working, I suspect it took a while for impaired function to kick in but that is a guess.

I knew what you meant and I appreciate your follow up response. It was just a minor correction on specifically the correlation between testicular mass and testosterone production not necessarily fertility.

To your point someone can absolutely have good test levels but the sertoli cells aren't working enough to turn the germ cells into sperm cells. The fix is usually FSH via a SERM or HMG as an analogue.