Modern harm reduction protocols thread!

fangedparabolan

fangedparabolan

Active member
Trusted Member
Hello brothers (and the occasional sister)

Im here today to discuss modern harm reduction in the bodybuilding space! The aim of this thread is provide users here ranging from those on trt to trt + to recreational hobbyists to athletes and extreme athletes (bodybuilders, powerlifters, strongman etc) on a wide range of doses and compounds from the lowest perscribed to the multiple gram open competitors a place to discuss the cutting edge of how to stay as healthy as possible given any dose over medically perscribed is harmful to the human body and is defined as abuse.

I myself am a mens physique competitor aiming to go pro. I began my journey as a young natty cutting my teeth under a famous pro who himself came up around yates. I competed naturally, learned to bulk, cut, recomp, meal prep, track nutrition, follow proper sleep hygine, program and logbook, do daily liss while also getting 10k steps and a few hiit sessions a week and attain medical supervision while following a strict whole foods plant predominant pescatarian diet All before every going enganced. I have also never drank, smoked/vaped nicotine, done rec drugs etc.

I am followed by a famous sports md along with a paych and sports cardio team along with an er nurse. And regularly engage with those with degrees in bio-chem etc.

Our space currently is at a standstill in harm reduction. The orthodoxy has maintained that fish oil, red yeast rice, niacin, citrus bergamot, berberine, natto and astragulus are "harm reduction"... they are not and will not save your heart or kidneys or vascualr system. They also have completely failed to address brain health

The science based crowd has meanwhile pushed telemasartin + nebivaolol as the gold standard ignoring the current medically approved protocols while shilling peptides without sufficent clinical data. Mechanistically we see mitochondrial enhancers risking future disease states such as cancer via misuse and peptides such as tb/bpc which risk heart fibrosis. Their idea of cognitive protection is sub par resesrch chems like semaks.

Both of these crowds given the current state of the literature are immoral and unethical and doing grave harm to our community.

After scowering the data from current medical literature in brain, heart, kidney health to exercise and lifestyle and nutriton optimization i have put together a list of what i believe are the basic essentials to mitigate harm while utalizing steroids from trt through to open pros.

Here is an essential list for running testosterone and anabolics from trt range to competative doses:

Before starting anabolics:
• get a full family history
• get full genetic testing
• get a baseline bloodwork, urinanslysis, ekg, holtor, echo, orgsn ultrasound, vo2 max
• know naturally how to diet, bulk, meal prep, sleep, do cardio, no rec substance use, train
• Get a psych and learn mindfullness techniques download personality tests, anxiety tests, mental health tests and take them to track your psychological state
• always have a total list of drugs used on hand and at least 1 emergency contact aware of everything you are using incase of hospitalization.
• learn proper injection techniques from an md or nurse
• find a sports md gp who is able to monitor you and recommend you to the proper specislists should issues arise

Essential auxiliaries at every dose level:

•Telemasartan (arb/ace alts also work)
•Nebivolol
• an sglt2 inhibitor
• mra (specifically finerenone)
• cialis
• Pentoxifylline
• pcsk9 inhibitor
• ezetimide
• statin or bempedoic acid
• vescepa

Additional drugs that are case dependent include
• diuretics (blood pressure)
• glps (weight loss)
• ivanradine (heart rate modulation)
• davigo (sleep + alzhimers protection)
• apixiban (anti-stroke)
• fluovaxamine (sert, sigma 1 receptor agonism, Melatonin sythesis, allo p synthesis, inhibit cardiac and renal fibrosis and brain cell death)

The combo of an arb/ace + a beta blocker + shlt2 inhibitor, and an mra is the golden standard in both heart and kidney failure along with the research on prevention and treatment of those diagnosed with LVH including those whose is anabolic induced.

Telemasartin alone covers up to 60% of the raas cascade can be attenuated with telemasartan but this 🍃 open and allows anabolics to engage the MR. Krendia (finerenone) inhibits this thus preventing fibrosis from occuring in the kidneys and heart.

Combination of tele + finerenone risks hyperkalima and thus empagliflozin when added helps to drastically reduce this risk while also protecting the kidneys via reduction in occurrences of AKI, slowing or inhibiting ones progress to final stage kidney failure, maintaining a slower egfr decline, improves blood pressure, improves kidney oxygenation. Pentoxifylline further reduces fibrosis + oxidative stress + inflammation in the kidneys and heart! Ontop of that Pentoxifylline has been demonstrated to increase ejection fraction up to 10%. Nebivaolol lowers bp, and increases no production which cialis helps keep around longer.

Pcsk9 inhibitors + ezetimide + a statin or bempedoic acid cover all the available pathways we are aware of for the accumulation of plaque and will be required for most of us to hit a goal abo b of 55 or less to not only inhibit build up but also reverse it.

Supps: these will be person and bloodwork dependent but the shit that works and is essential are:

• dual action melatonin
• creatine
• taurine
• glycine
• magnesium biglycinate
• co q 10
• pqq
• ala
• b 50 complex
• vit e (full spectrum)
• vit c
• vit d
• k2
• tmg
• tudca
• nac
• chamomile extract or apigenin (supp or via diet)
• lypocene (but get via food)
• spermadine (get via food)
• Choline (get via food)
• l theanine
• fish oil (eha, dpa, dha) 4g
• flax oil (1.6g ala total)
• liposomal sertia glutathione
• saffron
• PEA

Diet related:

- diet should be high carb, moderate to high protein and low fat with fats coming from essential fatty acid sources. Nuke saturated fat. Whole foods pescatarian based is ideal. If meat consumed the leanest meat possible like bison, elk, chicken breast.

- avoid diets related to carnivore and keto ideologies.

Great dietary add ons for longevity include:
• black coffee
• green tea
• wheat germ
• soy flour or milk or protein or tvp
• raw unpasteurized buckwheat honey
• walnuts
• 100% pure dark chocolate
•garlic powder
• curicum powder
• onion powder
• oregano dried
• basically herbs/seasoning spices
• 10-15g fiber for each 1k cals
• a serving or two of berries
• 800g minimum fruits and veg a day
• cacao thats not alk and dutch pressed
• 100% pure antioxidant fruit juice
• seaweed
• Kombucha
• fermented dairy

^ sounds hippy but you need anti oxidents, polyphennols, phtyosterols etc etc etc

Mitchondria and heart:
• 10k steps a day
• 610 mins liss zone 2 a week
• 1-2 hiit sessions a week
• eat at maitiance or deficit or 100 cal surplus while gaining muscle
• research into athletes has demonstrated muscle gained in a deficit to maitiance is occupied by more mitchondria than in a surplus
• creatine/co q 10/pqq/ala/magnesium/l carnitine/Tmg/Melatonin

Psych:

Much has been written on the neurotoxicity of steroids. But few have began to even discuss the ways in which they can be combated to attain a baseline of function into elder age

To maintain proper cognitive health while on anabolics:

•somethingthing for seratonin tone
• something for neurosteroids
• something for sigma 1 receptor agonism
• something for calcium channels
• something for choline
• something for nmda/glutamate
• something for amloyd and tau clearance
• something to maximize cerebral bloodflow
• something for cell membrane fluidity
• don't dopamine yourself to death
• something for reducing inflammation
• something anxiolytic
• something to regulate dopamine
• something to regulate orexin
• something to ensure sufficent estrogen
• avoid ai/serm as these inhibit endothelial no production
• something for bdnf,vegf/neurogenesis/angiogenesis
• something that replaces melatonin
• daily exercise
• daily reading
• learning via education
• learning via neurological adaptions i.e. dancing
• daily cardio
• maintaining strong social bonds

Sleep:
•7-9 hours
• wake up and go to bed at same time
• davigo
• hgh
• Melatonin
• L theanine
• glycine
• chamomile or apigenin
• taurine
• Cool room
• Blue light blockers
• avoid electronics
• keep lighting dim
• cold shower
• night walk
• Saffron/skullcap/valarien

Electrolytes:
• at minimum 2:1 potassium to salt
• you don't need as much salt as you think
• stop fucking using pink salt
• 1 serving of seaweed a day for iodine
• potassium is easily attained via dairy, veggies, spinach, dried fruits, bananas, lean meats
• no need to supplement calcium
• magnesium should be supplemented daily
• electrolyte powders are scams
• nu salt/no salt/half salt is superior

Additional:
• avoid alcohol
• avoid rec drugs
• avoid all types of smoking
• avoid saturated fat and trans fat
• limit processed sugars to workout window
• cheat meals are overrated
• avoid all stimulants unless rxd medically

Thank you for your time my brothers and i look forward to the discussion that proceeds! Please keep it mature, respectful, on topic and contribute as much as possible to grow our education base on what to do to minimize harm and maximize QOL and lifespan!
 
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Even though many of those could help with harm reduction, I am of the least amount of drugs to get the job done, type of person.

For example I see no need in taking a statin if your lipids are fine. Or blood pressure medication if your blood pressure is fine.

Now if the list is to take what you need when needed, then it could be a great list.
 
@fangedparabolan assuming you haven't blocked me already I have a question. What about harm already done? Will any of these protocols reverse damage?

I haven't touched tren in 2 years and ever since then the neurotoxicity has fucked my brain up into preferring chubby, even fat bitches. I'm talking like we need to get some harpoons out kinda fat.

I'm scared, please help. 🙏

I'm kinda serious. 😔
 
Sorbate said:
Even though many of those could help with harm reduction, I am of the least amount of drugs to get the job done, type of person.

For example I see no need in taking a statin if your lipids are fine. Or blood pressure medication if your blood pressure is fine.

Now if the list is to take what you need when needed, then it could be a great list.
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Hey brother thank you for the excellent question! Its a very important one at that!

I have great respect for the least amount of drugs type of person to get the job done but have yet to come across one whose blood pressure or lipids is "fine" by the actual science and medical literature standards.

Anabolic users show accelerated plaque accumulation when compared to average population. This means we fall into the extreme risk category and thus a medical gp saying we are fine because we fall into the green zone of the ref range is incorrect.

For us we require an apo b and ldl to be under 55 (usa units) both on a cycle and off of a cycle without it ever raising above this threshold in order to halt plaque accumulation and then reverse it. The only anabolic steroid users doing this are gifted genetically or vegan.

The problem with a single drug approach here say ezetimide is that blocking a specific pathway has been demonstrated to result in an upregulation in other pathways to compensate for this. We see this also with bp through the raas cascade when using telemasartin and aldosterone leakage occurs.

Also given the modern blood pressure standards 120/80 to 130/80 is stage 1 hypertension. Very few guys on anabolics are running around at say 105/60 or 110/70 and never reaching over 119/79.

And again its also important to note telemasartin covers only 60% of raas cascade the remaining % requires blocking the MR so even if bp is "fine" and cholesterol is "fine" you are accumulating damage to the brain, heart, and kidneys via both ar signaling and MR signaling and if doses are on the lower end this means it will simply rear its ugly head up on the backend. Most men are unaware that dht itself has a unique role in the progression of LVH that standard measures like bp, cholesterol, and telemasartin do not stop.

This is for say the heart an echo, ekg, holtor, stress test are not enough and a cardiac mri is required to fully test for fibrosis.

The final flaw i wish to address in this philosophy is that these drugs have benefits beyond their typical uses that will result in enhanced lifespan i.e. empagliflozin

When our community has medical doctors like dr thomas o connor, dr andrew winge, and dr nathan downey recommending these drugs and utalizibg them themselves despite perfect blood pressure it should lead you to question your own positions validity in the face of those whose job is trt/hrt managment in hundreds to thousands of clients. They have the education and experience here. The probability you know better or more or understand the topic at 1/5th the level they do is unlikely. We must humble ourselves and learn that biolgy and evolutionary are facts that dont care aboit our hippy theories.

But yes all lifestyle factors should be utalized prior and if they fail drugs are the answer.
 
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fangedparabolan said:
Hey brother thank you for the excellent question! Its a very important one at that!

I have great respect for the least amount of drugs type of person to get the job done but have yet to come across one whose blood pressure or lipids is "fine" by the actual science and medical literature standards.

Anabolic users show accelerated plaque accumulation when compared to average population. This means we fall into the extreme risk category and thus a medical gp saying we are fine because we fall into the green zone of the ref range is incorrect.

For us we require an apo b and ldl to be under 55 (usa units) both on a cycle and off of a cycle without it ever raising above this threshold in order to halt plaque accumulation and then reverse it. The only anabolic steroid users doing this are gifted genetically or vegan.

The problem with a single drug approach here say ezetimide is that blocking a specific pathway has been demonstrated to result in an upregulation in other pathways to compensate for this. We see this also with bp through the raas cascade when using telemasartin and aldosterone leakage occurs.

Also given the modern blood pressure standards 120/80 to 130/80 is stage 1 hypertension. Very few guys on anabolics are running around at say 105/60 or 110/70 and never reaching over 119/79.

And again its also important to note telemasartin covers only 60% of raas cascade the remaining % requires blocking the MR so even if bp is "fine" and cholesterol is "fine" you are accumulating damage to the brain, heart, and kidneys via both ar signaling and MR signaling and if doses are on the lower end this means it will simply rear its ugly head up on the backend. Most men are unaware that dht itself has a unique role in the progression of LVH that standard measures like bp, cholesterol, and telemasartin do not stop.

This is for say the heart an echo, ekg, holtor, stress test are not enough and a cardiac mri is required to fully test for fibrosis.

The final flaw i wish to address in this philosophy is that these drugs have benefits beyond their typical uses that will result in enhanced lifespan i.e. empagliflozin

When our community has medical doctors like dr thomas o connor, dr andrew winge, and dr nathan downey recommending these drugs and utalizibg them themselves despite perfect blood pressure it should lead you to question your own positions validity in the face of those whose job is trt/hrt managment in hundreds to thousands of clients. They have the education and experience here. The probability you know better or more or understand the topic at 1/5th the level they do is unlikely. We must humble ourselves and learn that biolgy and evolutionary are facts that dont care aboit our hippy theories.

But yes all lifestyle factors should be utalized prior and if they fail drugs are the answer.
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What you say makes sense, but I wonder what some of the sides the added on protective drugs have?

I wonder if it is better to only use if needed?

I do not claim to understand the topic, but just apply basic common sense to the situation. All drugs have some sort of potential to unwanted effects.
 
Sorbate said:
What you say makes sense, but I wonder what some of the sides the added on protective drugs have?

I wonder if it is better to only use if needed?

I do not claim to understand the topic, but just apply basic common sense to the situation. All drugs have some sort of potential to unwanted effects.
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Great follow up!

I think the main contention between our positions is "only use if needed" and "basic common sense" and how we define them.

If apo b is above 55 then for anyone on anabolics cholesterol meds are needed

If blood pressure is 120/80 or above meds are needed.

Basic common sense knowing that anabolics are toxic to the heart and kidneys via the ar, mr, mitochondria alone even when blood pressure and rhr are controlled mean that while you may not have a case for on label use an educated sports md, sports cardio, sports nephro, or internal medacine doctor would still be rxing these meds off label due to effects they have that would be deemed "side effects" i.e. empagliflozin upregulates mitochondria in the heart improving performance that was hindered by mr and ar activation. Finerenone via blocking the mr prevents fibrosis that occurs independently of all metrics you provided earlier.

We see ef drop in users above hrt doses and Pentoxifylline will increase it back up 10%.

"Only if needed" forgets that these drugs can only help slow or inhibit damage. If you use them only when "needed" aka on cycle you are ignoring the HUGE role these drugs play in biological recovery and reversal. When off cycle these drugs via multiple pathways can reverse damage done i.e. plaque accumulation, death of neurons, shrinking of brain regions, lvh/cardiomypothay.

Furthermore drugs like empagliflozin have been demonstrated in studies to increase longevity overall meaning you get a net positive regardless of anabolic use.

Longevity science has long speculated that a slower heart beat results in a longer life. If you are at 50-60 bpm which is great and take a beta blocker dropping it to 40bpm you are extending life and the no production will also benefit long term endothelial and function. Pentoxifylline will drop stroke risk and lower all markers of systematic inflammation including neuronal and allow oxygenation of areas occluded by plaque accumulation thus preventing death of deoxgyinated tissues.

Empagliflozin and Finerenone combined are demonstrated to slow kidney decline to point of a large number of persons not requiring dialysis. As we age we naturally lose kidney function and these meds would further slow that down putting off harsher medications and treatments.

Of course we should maximize lifestyle first and foremost but basic common sense dictates that the researchers phds scientists and medical professionals who are advicating trt users utalize telemasartin, nebivolol, empagliflozin, repatha, ezetimide etc even at micro doses when markers are good should clearly tell us that markers sre insufficient metrics and evidence to overall benefits outweighing sides exist.
 
...and this is why i say pro level athletes are a walking pharmacological experiment.

I respect that the OP is trying to give a deeper insight into harm prevention while using peds.

I also would like to say that when someone takes this much time and effort into what would be needed to reduce harm enough for them to feel that they have found the "way" to do peds "safely" or safer that it just screams very loudly exactly how unhealthy the whole thing really is.

Its better to attempt to fully understand and attempt to mitigate risk if this is the route an individual chooses (going pro). So for that i give the OP respect. While respecting the OP i recommend everybody does thier own reasearch into all that has been said as it is each of our own responsiblities to protect ourselves and we cannot just take someones word for it, no matter how well it is written.
 
So @fangedparabolan ,

What would be the list of polypharma for someone who just likes to run 500mg of test per week, occasional proviron 25-50mg per day and 1-2iu of quality hgh?

Is the list the same and just amounts depend on med test results?

This is very off putting of a post you have made tbh. More and more i am getting steered towards 250 test and 1-2 iu gh only.
 
Sorbate said:
What you say makes sense, but I wonder what some of the sides the added on protective drugs have?

I wonder if it is better to only use if needed?

I do not claim to understand the topic, but just apply basic common sense to the situation. All drugs have some sort of potential to unwanted effects.
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Exactly. Now taking this as my lipids are high from AIs. But the satin is giving me ED so loading up on Viagra. But Viagra is giving me stuffy head so I’m sniffing Otrivin. Otrivin is giving me dry mouth……… 🤦‍♂️
 
The Old Guy said:
@DeeKnows and @Sorbate your pussification is keeping you from getting huge.

Oh my shoulder hurts……..Oxy

I can’t grow …………. Tren

I don’t have time………..Meth

I’m lacking motivation………Meth again

My intensity is waning………..Meth, Tren and Halo.


So any more questions or excuses bitches.
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Its all from over training.:)
 
The Old Guy said:
@DeeKnows and @Sorbate your pussification is keeping you from getting huge.

Oh my shoulder hurts……..Oxy

I can’t grow …………. Tren

I don’t have time………..Meth

I’m lacking motivation………Meth again

My intensity is waning………..Meth, Tren and Halo.


So any more questions or excuses bitches.
Click to expand...
And the Meth will eliminate all the happy feelings from the Tren win win
 
DeeKnows said:
So @fangedparabolan ,

What would be the list of polypharma for someone who just likes to run 500mg of test per week, occasional proviron 25-50mg per day and 1-2iu of quality hgh?

Is the list the same and just amounts depend on med test results?

This is very off putting of a post you have made tbh. More and more i am getting steered towards 250 test and 1-2 iu gh only.
Click to expand...
The brutal reality is that the post is off putting for a reason:

Outside of medically perscribed hrt i.e. testosterone and hgh there is no "safe use" and the deluded idea parroted around these parts that the recreational user using under what a pro uses is "safer" is exactly best described via your own words "they have found the "way" to do peds "safely" or safer that it just screams very loudly exactly how unhealthy the whole thing really is".

500mg test per week with occasional proviron and 1-2iu of hgh is drug abuse plain and simple.

If one has a wife and kids job and friends and family using anabolics for the beach or a narcisstic hobby and is using the stack you mentioned above then one is unethical and immoral.

If they actually cared about the above theyd either be on real trt which is not 250mg OR yes they would be running telemasartin + nebivaolol + empagliflozin + finerenone and repatha. They'd have a a sports md, full family history and genetic testing.... but lets be real most here dont. So they attack me and my threads because if they are able to actually understand the post they realize all their own critiques of me apply to themselves and that I'm doing for more to be safe then they are....hell i dont have kids because im not a hypocrite.

So to answer your question yes amounts just increase or decrease depending on drug amounts, genetics, lifestyle factors and organ scans and mri's bloodwork is insufficient to determine anything to a significant extent unless paired with urinalysis, ultrasounds, holtors, mri, echo, ekg etc.

If i didnt plan on competeing and going pro. And if money wasnt something provided from my physique id never touch anabolics outside of hrt.

If this forum is for bodybuilding we dont attack competitor dosing. Otherwise this is just a glorified looksmaxxing forum for twinks with a fake tuff guy larp haha
 
The Old Guy said:
Exactly. Now taking this as my lipids are high from AIs. But the satin is giving me ED so loading up on Viagra. But Viagra is giving me stuffy head so I’m sniffing Otrivin. Otrivin is giving me dry mouth……… 🤦‍♂️
Click to expand...
Ppfft viagra?! Naw im popping cock bombs 3 times daily bro i got a iv set up to boof otrivin drip feed style

But on a serious note: for the reading audiences education and not yourself

Returning to my post it explicitly states to avoid ai and serms. Even proper trt and hrt does not perscribe ai or serms and many guys seem to not have gotten the memo. Ai and serms actually damage the endothelial tissue and each dose inhibits natural no production for 1-2 days per dose.

As for statins given our population repatha + ezetimide are pretty much side effect free for the vast majority. A statin should be a 3rd additional benefit when lifestyle and the two aforementioned drugs fail given they are antiquated and really just handed out like candy due to being dirt cheap...love our healthcare system

A proper healthy male should not have ed and its less likely the statin caused issue but that the vascular system of the cock has been occluded due to high cholesterol or endothelial tissue damage from bp or damaged no production from ai/serm abuse aka use.

Id rather promote lifestyle to avoid statin use but the vast majority here will not eat a whole foods plant predominant pescatarian diet and quit saturated fat intake. Or eat enough NO raising foods to avoid say cialis

A huge portion of the harm reduction meds are required due to poor lifestyle. Most guys posting here do not have a 4:1 potassium to sodium ration unfortunately. They dont know how to inhibit mr regulation on their own and will fail if attempted.

Back to the op:

I understand your post is a joke and i laughed my fucking ass off but i know some guys here are reading it without understanding the joke because so many questions being asked were answered in my inital post LOL
 
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