.

[T77]

Back to the stain drugs.
My doctor wanted me to take them because obviously my cholesterol is very high. This was quite a while ago.
I refused them. She was angry.
But, in my mind I decided they are not for me. I mean I could take them, but if I was concerned with my levels, maybe a first step would be to stop eating 12 whole eggs every fucking day. And maybe cut back on the daily piles of ground beef, and so on.
She did not question my diet, at all.
I see no point in adding drugs to counter an issue that is directly cause by what I am putting in my body. When I get to the point where I care, i will make diet changes first.
Seems obvious to me.
And let me save “that guy” some trouble and add this myself

This is one struggle I have with the modern medical system, at least in Alberta. Our perhaps it more a societal flaw in that so many are unwilling to do the work daily to eat decently and do at least the minimum amount of activity. Perhaps doctors go right to medication because they've lost faith that many of us will actually make lifestyle changes. Even with that in mind there should be a push from physicians to promote healthy lifestyle along with appropriate medication.

 

[Goldenrod]

This is one struggle I have with the modern medical system, at least in Alberta. Our perhaps it more a societal flaw in that so many are unwilling to do the work daily to eat decently and do at least the minimum amount of activity. Perhaps doctors go right to medication because they've lost faith that many of us will actually make lifestyle changes. Even with that in mind there should be a push from physicians to promote healthy lifestyle along with appropriate medication.

Well said @T77 - it is often easier to write a script vs. talking to a patient for 15 minutes about healthy eating / exercise. Not against medication in the least, but if not needed as you could walk the block 10 times and put down the pepsi and junk food - there would be a lot less medication doled out.

 

[Sorbate]

This post is good illustration of the point I was making earlier.

You characterize yourself as the evidence driven, nuanced, mature while dismissing people who disagree with you as emotional, uneducated, unreasonable, trolls, or hiding behind their feelings.

The irony is that these posts contains the kinds of reasoning you're criticizing in others.

You invoke Harvard, UBC, systematic reviews and meta analyses as authorities, while simultaneously making unsupported claims about industry funding and other people's motives.

None of that means you're wrong about the underlying science. It demonstrates that being knowledgeable about a subject doesn't make you immune to the same reasoning errors you're identifying in other people.

The confidence with which you make these judgments is considerably less well supported than the specific scientific claims you're making.
I think that's fundamentally why you're running into pushback... the evidence you've presented doesn't justify the level of confidence you're expressing.

As an intelligent guy, imagine you've just recently walked into a room of long-term forum members who have earned their reputation and the respect of their peers through years of posts demonstrating a cogent and cohesive understanding of a wide range of subjects, and their willingness and ability to engage respectfully with others.

You start speaking with great confidence, belittling valid concerns and expecting others to give you that same level of consideration and respect immediately because you post a collection of various scientific consensus studies on average populations that, in your mind, when summed together will support your untested hypothetical framework of harm reduction in otherwise healthy PED users.
When the studies you've posted aren't even about that cohort.
You're relying heavily on extrapolation of mechanisms of action that, in many cases, have failed to predict the actual clinical outcome.

You said earlier that you have an education in complex systems analysis. Yet from what you've posted, you're repeatedly demonstrating the very reductionism and a priori bias you're criticizing in others.

"People don't like nuance. They want good or bad to justify their bad habits or a priori emotional beliefs."

Kinda like trying to convince yourself that you can safely do a butt load of tren if you take a long stack of drugs and supplements?

There is a substantial body of evidence showing that as the number of medications (and potential expected and unexpected interactions) increases, the risks increase as well.
Individual compounds have characterized effects, but whether you can confidently predict the behaviour and risk of the entire combination? Not by simply adding those individual effects together.
So why don't you post the studies that demonstrate that you actually can, or how this isn't a concern in your approach with your stack?

I'm sure you must have read Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows, and know the distinction between understanding individual elements and understanding the behaviour of the system as a whole.

Anyway, I am enjoying your posts of various studies on lesser known metabolic pathways.
Biochemistry has barely scratched the surface.
It's your epistemic positioning that I think could use some attention.

Cheers.

I remember when I thought I knew it all when I was younger. Once my business started to really get going I thought I was such the business man and would “help” other guys with theirs that had been in business far longer. Looking back I was just full of myself at the time and meant no harm.

But I had one guy who straightened me out and I listened, it was humbling and glad I did before I turned everyone off from wanting to be around me.

This is what this thread reminds me of.

It’s good to believe in yourself, but we have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason, lol.

 

[logan11847]

I remember when I thought I knew it all when I was younger. Once my business started to really get going I thought I was such the mud kness man and would “help” other guys with theirs that had been in business far longer. Looking back I was just full of myself at the time and meant no harm.

But I had one guy who straightened me out and I listened, it was humbling and glad I did before I turned everyone off from wanting to be around me.

This is what this thread reminds me of.

It’s good to believe in yourself, but we have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason, lol.

I do think he’s offering really good advice, although maybe pushing a little hard on it as most people here won’t realistically be taking more than a couple of ancillaries.

I’ve talked to him quite a bit and he knows his shit thoroughly and realistically most of what he’s saying is not wrong. Running 1750mg of tren might be excessive but atleast he’s trying to mitigate the sides.

I don’t use as many ancillaries as him due to the fact I don’t even think I could mentally keep track but I do typically use the basics, rosuvustatin ezetimibe and nebivolol and or telmisartan. My opinion is that using those 4 can help significantly mitigate damage with long term anabolic usage and my lipids have stayed perfect. To each their own and I don’t want to come across as someone implying “ you’re a fucking idiot unless you do what I do”. As everyone can do what they want. At the end of the day we’re all taking gear and or research chemicals putting our health at risk regardless.

I think a lot of people are kind of taking what he’s saying as that and maybe he’s coming off a little aggressively to some as well. I think the whole point of his original thread was just trying to help other people and him getting harsh responses while being on almost 2G of tren I’m surprised he held it in as much as he did , obviously some of those ancillaries are helping with that , I personally would’ve lost my mind.

 

[Funnyman]

I think he should start a new thread, kinder more gentle thread.
The right way is to, hold hands & sing together.

 

[Sorbate]

Oh he obviously has

I do think he’s offering really good advice, although maybe pushing a little hard on it as most people here won’t realistically be taking more than a couple of ancillaries.

I’ve talked to him quite a bit and he knows his shit thoroughly and realistically most of what he’s saying is not wrong. Running 1750mg of tren might be excessive but atleast he’s trying to mitigate the sides.

I don’t use as many ancillaries as him due to the fact I don’t even think I could mentally keep track but I do typically use the basics, rosuvustatin ezetimibe and nebivolol and or telmisartan. My opinion is that using those 4 can help significantly mitigate damage with long term anabolic usage and my lipids have stayed perfect. To each their own and I don’t want to come across as someone implying “ you’re a fucking idiot unless you do what I do”. As everyone can do what they want. At the end of the day we’re all taking gear and or research chemicals putting our health at risk regardless.

I think a lot of people are kind of taking what he’s saying as that and maybe he’s coming off a little aggressively to some as well. I think the whole point of his original thread was just trying to help other people and him getting harsh responses while being on almost 2G of tren I’m surprised he held it in as much as he did , obviously some of those ancillaries are helping with that , I personally would’ve lost my mind.

Oh he has obviously studied a lot. But my point was, just because you think you know it all, doesn’t mean that the bias should close your eyes to other stuff around you.

I get it I was there.

And yeah, the guys were on him a bit, but damn the dosages, lol. And multiple drug combinations. Right or wrong, too obtuse for most.

 

[T77]

Gotta be honest. Dont always love his delivery. But I love the fact that its pushing many if us to question and give thought to the information he presents. And his responses are intelligent, well thought out and well presented. But that still doesn't mean I always agree. But I love when Im pushed to think about things beyond what I have already accepted as true. But Im an old nerd who went to university for way too many years and that quest for knowledge lingers even decades later. I also love that Taureaus response has been, hey im not here to filter opinions, just dont break my fuckin rules

 

[CoolRick]

I do think he’s offering really good advice, although maybe pushing a little hard on it as most people here won’t realistically be taking more than a couple of ancillaries.

I’ve talked to him quite a bit and he knows his shit thoroughly and realistically most of what he’s saying is not wrong. Running 1750mg of tren might be excessive but atleast he’s trying to mitigate the sides.

I don’t use as many ancillaries as him due to the fact I don’t even think I could mentally keep track but I do typically use the basics, rosuvustatin ezetimibe and nebivolol and or telmisartan. My opinion is that using those 4 can help significantly mitigate damage with long term anabolic usage and my lipids have stayed perfect. To each their own and I don’t want to come across as someone implying “ you’re a fucking idiot unless you do what I do”. As everyone can do what they want. At the end of the day we’re all taking gear and or research chemicals putting our health at risk regardless.

I think a lot of people are kind of taking what he’s saying as that and maybe he’s coming off a little aggressively to some as well. I think the whole point of his original thread was just trying to help other people and him getting harsh responses while being on almost 2G of tren I’m surprised he held it in as much as he did , obviously some of those ancillaries are helping with that , I personally would’ve lost my mind.

Not targetting you personally here, just saying that this point that he has "knows his stuff" is something I'm not a believer in.

He has not once demonstrated he knows what he's talking about in a practical sense let alone how the system in question works or even complex systems in general.

He writes things as though taking xyz drug is like pulling a single lever that alters nothing else. That's simply not how it works. Not only that, he can't prove anything he's saying because the clinical data doesn't exist either. Put simply there is no data for even one of those drugs with nearly 2g of tren let alone 20+ items all together at once.

All I've seen is the regurgitation of information and PED buzzwords about drugs in isolation wrapped together in half baked theories. And that's me being polite.

Otherwise, all of this is basic stuff, manage your lipids, blood sugar and blood pressure etc. All of which can be done without drugs if someone wants and choosing the compounds that work best with an individual. Some things can be even be mitigated by not taking 2g of tren. I think, idk I'm not a scientist.

The only thing this guy's threads and every other tren related thread have shown me is that there's something weird going on with these guys taking boat loads of tren. I'll call it tren brain. That should be the actual study.

The most disturbing addition to their symptoms I've seen as of late is some member's expressed sexual interest in farm animals.

 

[logan11847]

Gotta be honest. Dont always love his delivery. But I love the fact that its pushing many if us to question and give thought to the information he presents. And his responses are intelligent, well thought out and well presented. But that still doesn't mean I always agree. But I love when Im pushed to think about things beyond what I have already accepted as true. But Im an old nerd who went to university for way too many years and that quest for knowledge lingers even decades later. I also love that Taureaus response has been, hey im not here to filter opinions, just dont break my fuckin rules

yeah , I’m at the point where I’ve ran sketchy enough shit that I can’t be bothered about some potential side affects from actual FDA approved medications. Even though the FDA is a joke regardless.

Not targetting you personally here, just saying that this point that he has "knows his stuff" is something I'm not a believer in.

He has not once demonstrated he knows what he's talking about in a practical sense let alone how the system in question works or even complex systems in general.

He writes things as though taking xyz drug is like pulling a single lever that alters nothing else. That's simply not how it works. Not only that, he can't prove anything he's saying because the clinical data doesn't exist either. Put simply there is no data for even one of those drugs with nearly 2g of tren let alone 20+ items all together at once.

All I've seen is the regurgitation of information and PED buzzwords about drugs in isolation wrapped together in half baked theories. And that's me being polite.

Otherwise, all of this is basic stuff, manage your lipids, blood sugar and blood pressure etc. All of which can be done without drugs if someone wants and choosing the compounds that work best with an individual. Some things can be even be mitigated by not taking 2g of tren. I think, idk I'm not a scientist.

The only thing this guy's threads and every other tren related thread have shown me is that there's something weird going on with these guys taking boat loads of tren. I'll call it tren brain. That should be the actual study.

The most disturbing addition to their symptoms I've seen as of late is some member's expressed sexual interest in farm animals.

Tren brain is the reason I’m not sure I’ll ever run it again.


As for the mechanistic part, I totally understand where you’re coming from to be honest, especially considering half these aas have 0 literature and human trials. Just a few random rodent trials and a boatload of anecdotal shit from peoples experiences.

As for blood pressure management I agree, currently fully saturated on 550 test , 250 eq and 200 mast and just coming off short term use of anavar for a recomp with no blood pressure controls needed, only using ezetimibe and rosuvustatin.

Genetics also play a massive role in lipids..

Had a close buddy of mine take 400 test and 250 tren and binge ate pizza every night with an HDL that was as healthy as mine was naturally and a completely acceptable LDL.

I touch as much as 105 tren without a statin or ezetimibe and eat perfectly and my lipids are a mess.

 

[The Old Guy]

Wydm? Mentzer used meth and he got huge and ripped!

God mode

 

[The Old Guy]

I was joking lol. Nobody should be using that shit.

But yes Mentzer used meth.

Man was an absolute genius. Was lucky enough to meet him once. Have a signed copy of his book and did a training seminar.

 

[CoolRick]

Man was an absolute genius. Was lucky enough to meet him once. Have a signed copy of his book and did a training seminar.

That's awesome. Mentzer's work got me hooked on HIT. He was truly ahead of his time.

I was fortunate enough to have started out training at a fully equipped nautilus gym with the original blue chain driven stuff.

I remember reading his book then looking at the signed poster of him and Ray on the walls realizing that's the guy who's book I'm reading and he was actually there at one point.

Sadly, the gym went out of business due to COVID lockdowns.