“anabolic window of opportunity” fact or fiction??
- Thread starter Taureau
- Start date
Should you have adequate nutrition available in your system post workout? Of course.
Does x amount of any combination of macros within a certain short time frame present us with a "go/no go" scenario wrt anabolism. No, generally.
Too hard for me to argue without being very specific regarding times and amounts and all the other variables.
I personally have always covered all the bases in this area with intra-workout nutrition (or at least eating immediately before and after WO) right since I started lifting. This was before I ever really studied the subject, just never made sense to me to not have "empty blood" when trying to be in an anabolic state. Probably got that advice from my Dad who probably got it from one of his Charles Atlas courses
Edit- "to not have empty blood", Also i did not respond to the poll due to it's lack of a definition
Does x amount of any combination of macros within a certain short time frame present us with a "go/no go" scenario wrt anabolism. No, generally.
Too hard for me to argue without being very specific regarding times and amounts and all the other variables.
I personally have always covered all the bases in this area with intra-workout nutrition (or at least eating immediately before and after WO) right since I started lifting. This was before I ever really studied the subject, just never made sense to me to not have "empty blood" when trying to be in an anabolic state. Probably got that advice from my Dad who probably got it from one of his Charles Atlas courses
Edit- "to not have empty blood", Also i did not respond to the poll due to it's lack of a definition
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@Funnyman i learned that meals were every TWO hours, and every meal should have 40grams of protein to stay in a positive nitrogen balance
I find your quote is out of context. The question was never "one big meal after" it's more "do bigger meals benefit post training"
I'm confused (not a recent development)
"anabolic window of opportunity” fact or fiction??
I took the meaning of anabolic window of opportunity to be some thing like 'The supposed critical window of time after a workout where significant gains in the rate of anabolism can be achieved if certain nutritional needs, especially involving protein, are met'
Theories about the actual times and protocols being discussed usually sound something like "You need to get 30 grams of protein in you within 30 minutes Post WO so you don't waste the anabolic window"
You can sub any manner of nutrients or drugs for protein and vary the time but that's the general idea.
Or?
I did the every 2 hours before.
There are many book that said every 2-3 hours.
I even did every 2 1/2 hours.
I did the 40 grams as well per meal.
Try both ways and see how you response.
I think the anabolic window concept is highly overrated. Rationally, if it were true then you should be drinking a full nutrition protein/carb shake during your workout to get nutrition to the muscle immediately after a set. However that isn't a recommended protocol. To be perfectly honest I have often taken a protein shake or food right before a workout and I've never seen my performance or growth diminish from it. In my experience what really matters from a growth perspective is consistency of nutrition intake and the amount of protein you consume. My best results have come from 1.5 grams of protein per day of my total body weight spaced out in 6 or 7 meals.
Well, why the hell would someone wait longer than 30 min anyway? Time is ticking and most want to get in 6 meals. Waiting longer makes this harder than it already is. So I say get the cals as quick as possible in lights of that big picture I described.
This whole "I ate before, don't need protein post" is pure garbage. If that's the case, guess I can just eat a steak for breakfast and not eat protein the rest of the day as beef needs more time to be totally digested.
I would expect at least one person reading along will strongly disagree with an argument like- "just another rip-off idea pushed by supp companies to make money" but I disagree. Of course they are trying to make money but that doesn't mean intra-WO nutrition is a waste.
MY Intra WO Nutrition;
HBCD 20- 50gr
EAA -10gr
Creatine 10 gr
Niacin Tablet 1gr
Caffeine Tabs - 2-400gr
Optional - Taurine, Beta Alanine, Epehedrine, DMMA
That along with my pre meal covers my "No Empty Blood" needs. I also eat fairly quickly post Wo but that is mainly because there are only so many hours in a day to cram food in. Pretty much how I roll all year except for when cutting which has a completely different carb strategy.
I will dig up some other info about protein needs later, gotta git to the gym and remind all them 45's who the boss is.
If you eat enough food all day you have a cobstant source of protien in your blood stream.
Yes you need to eat after training, but I don’t think doing it within a set amount of time matters.
Fir example, you eat every 3 hours while awake, so you eat about 1 hour before training, train fir an hour but don’t eat again until about an hour after, you supposedly missed the anabolic window. I don’t think it matters that much. As long as you get your nutrient in consistently.
It’s funny because a lot of people hit that anabolic window but fail to eat enough on weekends, or skip other meals because they just don’t feel like eating.
Likely 90% of the time I’ll eat around 1 hour after training. By the time I stretch, chef on here, brush my teeth and get my eggs ready, well that’s when it happens.
Yes you need to eat after training, but I don’t think doing it within a set amount of time matters.
Fir example, you eat every 3 hours while awake, so you eat about 1 hour before training, train fir an hour but don’t eat again until about an hour after, you supposedly missed the anabolic window. I don’t think it matters that much. As long as you get your nutrient in consistently.
It’s funny because a lot of people hit that anabolic window but fail to eat enough on weekends, or skip other meals because they just don’t feel like eating.
Likely 90% of the time I’ll eat around 1 hour after training. By the time I stretch, chef on here, brush my teeth and get my eggs ready, well that’s when it happens.
The website would not be my first go-to for info but Layne knows protein better than anyone I am aware of, references to his studies are attached but iirc this is much easier reading and provides enough info for laymen
https://spotmebro.com/layne-norton-phd-on-protein-how-much-and-how-often/2/
but Layne knows protein better than anyone I am aware of, references to his studies are attached but iirc this is much easier reading and provides enough info for laymenhttps://spotmebro.com/layne-norton-phd-on-protein-how-much-and-how-often/2/
PUBMED
Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6.
The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.
MacDougall JD1, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.
Author information
Abstract
It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs post exercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being non significant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.
PMID: 8563679
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6.
The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.
MacDougall JD1, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.
Author information
Abstract
It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs post exercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being non significant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.
PMID: 8563679
[Indexed for MEDLINE]
- So one way to increase protein Synth is to train the muscle with less sets and MORE frequency..If we are talking enhanced[steroids/Sarms etc] then not crucial as they in and of themselves cause PS but for non enhanced also the source of protein is helpful.Grass fed beef and eggs are superior in hormonal/cholesterol production over chicken for instance for size-I think chicken is better for cutting/reducing.Fish with omega 3 fats is great and has lots of arginine.As said above leucine spiking with meals and between is further anabolic as is a whey protein drink with your meal to get the required 40ish grams per meal that helps trigger PS..I have a really deep seated feel that done with very conscious food choices that meals every 4 hrs is sufficient-the body systems need rest and processing time-Randy
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@Randy , good post. brought up another point I wish I had mentioned earlier Re: Leucine spiking - a practice I like is to take 5 grams of leucine about 15 min before I eat, twice a day at the most, especially if the upcoming meal is going to be a touch light on protein content. 5g instead of the 3.X gram that most of the literature points to because there is at least one study that say older guys (over 40 I think) need a little more to flip the switches on for PS.
Also a good point about the diminished importance of all of this for enhanced folks, I have a strong suspicion that some of you guys are juicing!
Also a good point about the diminished importance of all of this for enhanced folks, I have a strong suspicion that some of you guys are juicing!
I don't plan on stepping on a stage.. and I'm not going to refute the papers illustrated here. But I can tell you without a doubt that my growth was not affected by any measurably degree if I took my protein right after working, 2hrs. after, or 4 hrs after. Obviously, with timelines mentioned above anywhere from 4-24 hrs, most of who workout anywhere from 4-5 times a week should be at an elevated state all the time, making the "window" practically moot IMO.
Personally, I aim for my daily macro-nutrient goals and my weekly caloric goals. Primarily ensuring I got my target protein totals daily. After protein my macro-nutrients would vary based on my goals and energy levels.
Last year I barely even counted my macro-nutrients or calories. I've been doing this so long I have a good idea what to eat and how many macros I'm getting. Eating as low carb as possible and staying consistent kept me pretty shredded and vascular most of the year.
Personally, I aim for my daily macro-nutrient goals and my weekly caloric goals. Primarily ensuring I got my target protein totals daily. After protein my macro-nutrients would vary based on my goals and energy levels.
Last year I barely even counted my macro-nutrients or calories. I've been doing this so long I have a good idea what to eat and how many macros I'm getting. Eating as low carb as possible and staying consistent kept me pretty shredded and vascular most of the year.
I stopped reading the second study after the claim of "full body training being best" yikes, uhhhh, no.
Always taken with a grain of salt-lol-I really believe that Poliquin's lab testing showed repeat training of a muscle every 5 days is best for most and the more gifted physiologically can train every 4 days .On any # of days rotation the number one factor in my mind is how hard[sets/reps/% of intensity] one uses-more intense = more recovery time ..I trained under Vince Gironda in 1975 in North Hollywood and it was full body 3 days a week or many who were novice to intermediate because they were not able to put the intensity in nor were they using big weights for exercises [which cuts into recup] Many of the more advanced in Gironda's -Larry Scott etc did a 3 day split and repeat for 6 days a week and many times a morning /afternoon split.They did not work in many cases but just ate -rested-grew..lol Vince almost killed me having me do 2 exercises per muscle x 6 sets each with 30 sec rest between sets and heaviest weight possible for 6 reps - I had not trained in 6 months before so brutal.The wonderful part-got to do triceps v-bench rope extensions with Lou Ferrigno who asked to work in --star struck-lol