Looking for liver help
- Thread starter moleman
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- aftercare liver support pct
Milk thistle and nac. Maybe tudca. Something like liver hd might have all ingredients in one. There's probably liver detox bottles on Amazon too that'll have a mix of ingredients but research the effective doses because a lot of places just pixie dust little amounts to make it look good.
Wicked price on milk thistle at Costco. Nac and blackseed oil gtg on Amazon. Also PG anabolics has really good quality udca.
Cheers
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Morning - per my friend @Sorbate - I studied the liver and tried everything all the books and internet medical sites speak about.
Then did bloods to look for improvement. It was a blessing and a curse as I had to protect my liver from mono and not PED's. I had approximately a year of all liver enzymes being elevated and about 5 years with with chronic GGT being too high. Developed minor to mild/medium fatty liver due to the mono and then healed it and it is now gone confirmed by yearly ultrasounds.
High GGT when only 20 points over the norm is not a big deal but can be an indicator or stress from taking something as simple as a few Tylenol or having some drinks.
Anyway - couple questions: 1) Why do you want to hammer your liver and then take supplements after vs. supplements during when the liver needs the most help as it's glutathione is being depleted and could be inflamed? If you are taking orals that are known to be harsh on the liver or even high / harsher compounds by injection this is going to stress your liver and it has to work harder hence why wouldn't you protect it while you are doing this? I take 3 products and one is a cheap grocery store bought product daily even though my liver enzymes are fine. I can up these dosages of the supplements/foods - and if I take an oral it makes no difference, I know my ALT and GGT will be 4-7 times the norm within weeks.
I can list about 6 that have double blind placebo studies to protect rats (no human is going to take poison and see if a product is going to protect them). There are dozens but I rotate six and each one you will find studies in the health section to back up it's usage with animals / not humans.
Two things to consider - if you don't know what glutathione is (look it up) and why it is imperative you keep the level high (just like they do when you go to the hospital with Tylenol poisoning), and inflammation should be kept in check.
I am not being as short as Funnyman but I agree - don't take N2Guard. If you want to use milk thistle which I believe is a decent product but not one of my favourite but probably the longest used and most well known, but European mixed with Phosphatidylcholine to increase the bioavailability. Dried up milk thistle that sat in a bottle for a year and then you take it - don't expect too much but I would still consider it something to try.
2) Are you getting blood work during and after to see which organs are being stressed or just assuming the liver is stressed and needs help?
Anyway to the point - you can use google on medical studies or read here and you will find the info (I can list a lot more but how many do you want - I will list 6):
1. SAMe - not if you are on antidepressants as it is a prescription medication in multiple countries for depression. It also did as well as Celebrex for pain from inflammation after a few weeks. C = few days / S = few weeks for pain but just as effective. It is just as good as NAC for increasing your glutathione and I posted multiple studies showing this. One of if not my favourite supplements/medicine. It is expensive but does come in 400 mg tabs and at minimum take 800 mg. You can go up to 1600 but read up on it. Consider the fact if you have an animal with any liver issue - what do the vets prescribe for your dogs/cats/etc.? SAMe almost everytime because they can. Doctors can't in Canada as it isn't a prescription drug and they can't prescribe it. Most don't know what it is. It is expensive and if you are a big guy you may need a higher dosage as in 1200 to 1600 - trial and error. You may be fine with 400. The cheapest and works the same as the brand name comes from the US at Vitacost and is their brand.
2. Choline or even better and Phosphatidyl Choline. I take 420 mg twice a day. I usually buy Natural factors and it isn't expensive.
3. No one can dispute NAC will bump up your glutathione and force your body to make more if now. Dying of Tylenol poisoning and they will put you on an IV of NAC, in some countried they still use mega doses of oral NAC for Tylenol poisoning. Regardless - I don't take it year round but mix it in 1/2 the year. Supplement half lives are usually pretty low so I take everything twice a day - AM and around my supper meal.
4. Ginger - super cheap, buy fresh at the grocery store and cut off a chunk the size of your thumb and peel it and eat it. Some people complain it has a strong / harsh taste and they are correct but it isn't that bad. You can also buy regular ginger powder for cooking but I posted a study showing raw / fresher ginger outshines and beats powder. For an anti-inflammatory it is always listed in the top 3 and I would consider it in the same grouping as turmeric/curcumin due to it's terrible bioavailability. If you use curcumin or turmeric for pain/inflammation eat at least 6 peppercorns for the piperine to increase the bioavailability by a staggering percentage.
5. I take melatonin for sleep and I take a higher dose because it is an incredible liver protectant and the dual action that lasts 8-10 hours helps me stay asleep. There is a study I posted showing melatonin beat NAC and very high dose vitamin E(both seperate) both for poisonous substances with Winstrol rats - the main first step in a human drug study is with this animal. They had a control group and a group for all three products.
6. I said I would list 6 - real licorice root extract. It tastes great and comes in a black syrup. It has known as a liver protectant and is used in people with Hepatitis C. It is an excellent antioxidant and reduces oxidative stress. Before you take this supplement - read as it has contradictions with other medicine and if you have pre-existing liver/kidney issues, read and talk to your doctor albeit you might as well talk to the wall as they know very little about supplements or can't talk about it.
Just my opinion which is not always right and we all have different physiologies so what works for me or anyone, may not for you. I have no letters at the end of my name so take all my comments for what they are - opinion based on reading and trial and error using them. Do not consider this medical advice as I am not qualified to give it but I took a deep dive when into organ health when Mono attacked me in a unique way. Luckily I had a smart doctor who had seen it before and said I want to check for mono as this would explain the blood work. I was also checked for mono a few years before and did not have it. As a side note Tudca is used in hospitals for specific liver ailments and not so much for liver protection. Read up on it but it didn't do anything for me and I gave it a 60 day trial. It may for you and nothing wrong with the suggestions above naming it as it is popular. I believe there are better options.
If you are considering a food for protection - look up avocados. Part of my regular diet and full of healthy fats.
Sorry for the long winded message but it is hard to answer this with a take ____________. Research is your friend and pay attention to quality of the studies as some are horseshit and some are great.
Then did bloods to look for improvement. It was a blessing and a curse as I had to protect my liver from mono and not PED's. I had approximately a year of all liver enzymes being elevated and about 5 years with with chronic GGT being too high. Developed minor to mild/medium fatty liver due to the mono and then healed it and it is now gone confirmed by yearly ultrasounds.
High GGT when only 20 points over the norm is not a big deal but can be an indicator or stress from taking something as simple as a few Tylenol or having some drinks.
Anyway - couple questions: 1) Why do you want to hammer your liver and then take supplements after vs. supplements during when the liver needs the most help as it's glutathione is being depleted and could be inflamed? If you are taking orals that are known to be harsh on the liver or even high / harsher compounds by injection this is going to stress your liver and it has to work harder hence why wouldn't you protect it while you are doing this? I take 3 products and one is a cheap grocery store bought product daily even though my liver enzymes are fine. I can up these dosages of the supplements/foods - and if I take an oral it makes no difference, I know my ALT and GGT will be 4-7 times the norm within weeks.
I can list about 6 that have double blind placebo studies to protect rats (no human is going to take poison and see if a product is going to protect them). There are dozens but I rotate six and each one you will find studies in the health section to back up it's usage with animals / not humans.
Two things to consider - if you don't know what glutathione is (look it up) and why it is imperative you keep the level high (just like they do when you go to the hospital with Tylenol poisoning), and inflammation should be kept in check.
I am not being as short as Funnyman but I agree - don't take N2Guard. If you want to use milk thistle which I believe is a decent product but not one of my favourite but probably the longest used and most well known, but European mixed with Phosphatidylcholine to increase the bioavailability. Dried up milk thistle that sat in a bottle for a year and then you take it - don't expect too much but I would still consider it something to try.
2) Are you getting blood work during and after to see which organs are being stressed or just assuming the liver is stressed and needs help?
Anyway to the point - you can use google on medical studies or read here and you will find the info (I can list a lot more but how many do you want - I will list 6):
1. SAMe - not if you are on antidepressants as it is a prescription medication in multiple countries for depression. It also did as well as Celebrex for pain from inflammation after a few weeks. C = few days / S = few weeks for pain but just as effective. It is just as good as NAC for increasing your glutathione and I posted multiple studies showing this. One of if not my favourite supplements/medicine. It is expensive but does come in 400 mg tabs and at minimum take 800 mg. You can go up to 1600 but read up on it. Consider the fact if you have an animal with any liver issue - what do the vets prescribe for your dogs/cats/etc.? SAMe almost everytime because they can. Doctors can't in Canada as it isn't a prescription drug and they can't prescribe it. Most don't know what it is. It is expensive and if you are a big guy you may need a higher dosage as in 1200 to 1600 - trial and error. You may be fine with 400. The cheapest and works the same as the brand name comes from the US at Vitacost and is their brand.
2. Choline or even better and Phosphatidyl Choline. I take 420 mg twice a day. I usually buy Natural factors and it isn't expensive.
3. No one can dispute NAC will bump up your glutathione and force your body to make more if now. Dying of Tylenol poisoning and they will put you on an IV of NAC, in some countried they still use mega doses of oral NAC for Tylenol poisoning. Regardless - I don't take it year round but mix it in 1/2 the year. Supplement half lives are usually pretty low so I take everything twice a day - AM and around my supper meal.
4. Ginger - super cheap, buy fresh at the grocery store and cut off a chunk the size of your thumb and peel it and eat it. Some people complain it has a strong / harsh taste and they are correct but it isn't that bad. You can also buy regular ginger powder for cooking but I posted a study showing raw / fresher ginger outshines and beats powder. For an anti-inflammatory it is always listed in the top 3 and I would consider it in the same grouping as turmeric/curcumin due to it's terrible bioavailability. If you use curcumin or turmeric for pain/inflammation eat at least 6 peppercorns for the piperine to increase the bioavailability by a staggering percentage.
5. I take melatonin for sleep and I take a higher dose because it is an incredible liver protectant and the dual action that lasts 8-10 hours helps me stay asleep. There is a study I posted showing melatonin beat NAC and very high dose vitamin E(both seperate) both for poisonous substances with Winstrol rats - the main first step in a human drug study is with this animal. They had a control group and a group for all three products.
6. I said I would list 6 - real licorice root extract. It tastes great and comes in a black syrup. It has known as a liver protectant and is used in people with Hepatitis C. It is an excellent antioxidant and reduces oxidative stress. Before you take this supplement - read as it has contradictions with other medicine and if you have pre-existing liver/kidney issues, read and talk to your doctor albeit you might as well talk to the wall as they know very little about supplements or can't talk about it.
Just my opinion which is not always right and we all have different physiologies so what works for me or anyone, may not for you. I have no letters at the end of my name so take all my comments for what they are - opinion based on reading and trial and error using them. Do not consider this medical advice as I am not qualified to give it but I took a deep dive when into organ health when Mono attacked me in a unique way. Luckily I had a smart doctor who had seen it before and said I want to check for mono as this would explain the blood work. I was also checked for mono a few years before and did not have it. As a side note Tudca is used in hospitals for specific liver ailments and not so much for liver protection. Read up on it but it didn't do anything for me and I gave it a 60 day trial. It may for you and nothing wrong with the suggestions above naming it as it is popular. I believe there are better options.
If you are considering a food for protection - look up avocados. Part of my regular diet and full of healthy fats.
Sorry for the long winded message but it is hard to answer this with a take ____________. Research is your friend and pay attention to quality of the studies as some are horseshit and some are great.
@moleman - keep in mind there probably is a lot sitting in your kitchen that can help your body process foods, remove organ stress, etc.
I suspect long responses get skipped but also consider a warm glass of water with fresh lemon or ACV with water in the morning - sip it and don't just down it all, a tablespoon or less of EVOO each morning, and it's a double edged sword so research before you do it but low dose aspirin has a tremendous amount of evidence behind it for preventing liver cancer and liver issues in general. I do not know the mechanism, not do I think it is fully understood why (other than inflammation being better controlled) but the math doesn't lie. I don't know what you take for prescriptions and even low dose cause cause bleeding issues/ulcers/or worst case a perforation. Same with multiple other cancers - aspirin carries serious risks and contradictions but is a magical little medication.
Copious amounts of water helps the body rid toxins as well - pretty cheap remedy but I don't think it holds a candle to some of the other products that increase glutathione/reduce inflammation.
I suspect long responses get skipped but also consider a warm glass of water with fresh lemon or ACV with water in the morning - sip it and don't just down it all, a tablespoon or less of EVOO each morning, and it's a double edged sword so research before you do it but low dose aspirin has a tremendous amount of evidence behind it for preventing liver cancer and liver issues in general. I do not know the mechanism, not do I think it is fully understood why (other than inflammation being better controlled) but the math doesn't lie. I don't know what you take for prescriptions and even low dose cause cause bleeding issues/ulcers/or worst case a perforation. Same with multiple other cancers - aspirin carries serious risks and contradictions but is a magical little medication.
Copious amounts of water helps the body rid toxins as well - pretty cheap remedy but I don't think it holds a candle to some of the other products that increase glutathione/reduce inflammation.
moleman
Active member
Interesting you talk about basically stuff modt of us have in our kitchens already.
I actually make my own electrolyte drink 1 per day..
water, lemon concentrate, sodium
No other sugers etc, I drink while read a chapter or 2 in a book.
Your responses really demonstrate your level of knowledge in regards to the human body and supplements etc, I’ve told you that before
I get a good kick out of reading your responses
If you want to go outside Canada you can get a fresh new liver!!!! Why settle for old when you can have newIs there other options within Canada(love this country)
Any thoughts or direction would be appricated.
You can shit them out one after the other if you have enough money. Mickey Mantle shit out TWO livers. The docs refused to give him a third liver though
thanks - kind words.
I tried everything after damaging my liver from steroid abuse, nothing worked except
1) getting off gear completely, except I took 1 Androgel packet a day 2.5g
2) resveratrol 1g mixed in yogurt 1x a day
thing I tried
-livercare, liv52, milk thistle, NAC, bile acids (TUDCA), fibre bunch of other liver supplements
1) getting off gear completely, except I took 1 Androgel packet a day 2.5g
2) resveratrol 1g mixed in yogurt 1x a day
thing I tried
-livercare, liv52, milk thistle, NAC, bile acids (TUDCA), fibre bunch of other liver supplements
Can I ask how you damaged your liver? What compound, lengths of time, damage done and damage reversed
It's a very rare case and I doubt most people would have to worry about it, it was more steroid abuse due to depression, irregular childhood, domestic violence in the family growing up, being young/immature/stupid. I will say though I was fully aware of the consequences and in some ways may have wanted something to happen.
Compounds were all over the place and even with an extremely clean/OCD type of diet, the liver got pretty strained within about a year of anabolic steroids, and that continued for about 3 years.
I think it was actually the trenbolone abuse and methyl tren that got me, other compounds were still taken in high doses but nothing mind blowing.
I'd say alternations between "cutting" and "bulking cycles" for about 3 years, no time off other than cruising and even then I'd take something sometimes when I was feeling stagnant. A lot of it had to do with the gym being my only hobby and a way to get away from things, then it ended up being a career path so it was everything really and I think being stagnant / cruising at the time almost slowed down everything at once.
300-1g test, 300-1g tren, and if I took an oral was either 50-100 anadrol, 50-70dbol, 50-100anavar, 50-100winstrol or some methyltren
Liver enzymes, alt was about 150-300 year round and I was OCD with bloodwork, I might have gotten around 20+ blood tests a year. Sometimes you read "alt is elevated because you workout" online, I think that's BS, unless its a little elevated like maybe 50% above normal.
Nonetheless, when I finally quit steroids, I can't say anything made a significant impact other than quitting steroids completely, no TRT doses, illegal fatburners, gh, just 1 pack of Androgel 2.5g a day (5-10g is the trt dose) and perhaps the resveratrol did make a difference. By the time I had my first surgery my alt was at the low normal range and so were my other liver enzymes, it took about 2 years, 1.5 years was taking a bunch of liver supplements trying to stay on low dose /trt doses, and it just wouldn't work, eventually I had to just tell myself you either choose to live or die, there's no inbetween and got off everything. In about 6 months (maybe a bit longer) my liver was healed in terms of liver enzymes/inflammation.
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