Blood flow occlusion training

PhysLifter

Active member
Trusted Member
I've sort of rediscovered this as a student of mine did a presentation for our clinic on the benefits of BFR (blood flow restriction) training for patients with knees post surgically and with general pathology. Bodybuilding was always ahead but they couldn't explain why it worked (bro science). So I dug into a bit and found a significant amount of research as to how it works.

In a nutshell, but occluding venous flow but not arterial, you create a huge metabolic stress on the tissue. The two spots would be upper arm and quad (therapuetically it is also done just above the knee, but NEVER along the calf to ensure prevention of deep vein thrombosis). The ideal pressure is to be 20% less pressure from maximum arterial restriction (So you'd have to have a specific guage measuring until your pulse drops, then cut back 20%). You then train at around 40-60% of the max to preserve safety and structual integrity. Compression should be alleviated after every set or two to allow normal blood flow, but literature suggests that a maximum of 5 minutes of compression can be done before you start causing destruction to the tissue.

Well spank my ass and call me charlie, this gave me the craziest pumps i've ever had even after the first exercise. I just used my knee wraps as it's a wide strap and it's unsafe to use a 1" tourniquet style (minimum 2"). I've done legs twice, and today was arms for the first time. From shoulder to wrist I could feel enormous blood flow and the vascularity was unlike i've ever seen. Using lighter weights is an absolute necessity and it gives off the benefits of using maximum weight. I can see this as a game changer for my off season training with combination of normal training with this.

Has anyone else ever used this method before? It's creeping into the light a bit now with the medical community but haven't see much in bodybuilding, despite overwhelming evidence of it increasing mass.
 
I'm still scared of it, maybe that's irrational. (DVT etc)

From what I've gathered about, those percentages you mention are extremely important to get right if you wish to actually make lasting muscular gains. This is a major barrier for me as I don't have that kind of equipment on hand.

You are just the right kind of guy to experiment with it, I hope it works out for ya. I bet it feels awesome!
 
I always had issues growing my Biceps. I followed the usual "add 100lbs to your compound lifts and gain 1" on your biceps" mantra until I was hitting 450lbs on an unassisted DL for 3x5... Squats in the same vicinity, bench @ 1x BW. Genetically they didn't grow very much. Tried local MGF, Peg MGF (pinning biceps is torture IMHO) and HGH secretagogues. These helped somewhat... My Shoulders, back, triceps all grew... My calves were even growing over 17" in circumference but biceps looked like day one.

But I got the most noticeable gains, up to almost an inch of growth in a single year, by occluding bloodflow and focusing on dumbbell curls.

I was fairly lean, at 180lbs and under 13% BF at the time, so it was easy to find the major venous plexi for both biceps. I just lightly tied them off using the elastic bands from broccoli. I got some strange looks, but the pumps were unreal... Painful even. I Kept to 40 reps per session, 3x a week, along with unoccluded bloodflow for other bicep work (rows, for example).

I'll also say that this really focused growth on the long head bicep muscle. And I've kept this shape for years afterwards.
 
This reminds me of the kid I see at my gym lifting weights while wearing an N95 respirator. For the record I would eat slap him if it was still considered socially acceptable.

Sorry....this sounds like a bunch of witchdoctery and nonsense for little gain.

To each his own.... but I’ll just work harder thank you. These boil the ocean type approaches sound overly complicated and ridiculous.
 
This reminds me of the kid I see at my gym lifting weights while wearing an N95 respirator. For the record I would eat slap him if it was still considered socially acceptable.

Sorry....this sounds like a bunch of witchdoctery and nonsense for little gain.

To each his own.... but I’ll just work harder thank you. These boil the ocean type approaches sound overly complicated and ridiculous.

There's really nothing witch doctory about causing metabolic stress to the tissue with a reduced workload that's safer. Lee Haney always preached train smarter not harder. For example and food for thought: why should I try loading up 4 plates a side to squat, potentially risking serious injury to my body and fucking up my career, when I can load up 2 plates, strap my upper quads tight, and do 4-5 good sets but get serious stimulation to the tissue and make them grow?? It doesn't make it any easier, on the contrary, the training is insane and the pump is unlike i've ever felt. Isn't that win? Even for rehabilitating after an injury and you want to get back into the gym.

https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/blood-flow-restriction-training-bfr/

https://thebarbellphysio.com/science-blood-flow-restriction-training/

These two are for clinical applications
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5609669/

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/13/1003
 
Disagree entirely.

I respect your position and know your credentials but you're wrong in presenting the position that there there arent risks associated with seriously restricting things like blood flow and oxygen delivery while exercising.

Perhaps greater risks than lifting 4 plates as you say. That’s all subjective to the individual and their circumstances. Maybe 4 plates would crush you.... however I can handle such weight decently.

Putting an N95 respirator on myself and cranking out squats at 225 may make me pass out though..... or worse. The practice of blood flow restriction also has risks. What if I lose my legs (loose feeling) and fall? It shouldn’t happen... but it can. Risk.

So I’ll stick to my opinion about such matters.

Sometimes there’s more to something than what scientists write down on pieces of paper. I see this much differently than you do. Especially in practice.
 
Disagree entirely.

I respect your position and know your credentials but you're wrong in presenting the position that there there arent risks associated with seriously restricting things like blood flow and oxygen delivery while exercising.

Perhaps greater risks than lifting 4 plates as you say. That’s all subjective to the individual and their circumstances. Maybe 4 plates would crush you.... however I can handle such weight decently.

Putting an N95 respirator on myself and cranking out squats at 225 may make me pass out though..... or worse. The practice of blood flow restriction also has risks. What if I lose my legs (loose feeling) and fall? It shouldn’t happen... but it can. Risk.

So I’ll stick to my opinion about such matters.

Sometimes there’s more to something than what scientists write down on pieces of paper. I see this much differently than you do. Especially in practice.

There aren't as many risks, and I have evidence to back it up. Blood pressure changes and heart rate increases are noted but not of catatrophic or significant risk in normal patient populations. You do not do this on someone with severe cardiac, respiratory, clotting disorders. That's a given.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30086274

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30618781

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/378c/47ebe066ed818eed0d2d57df61b478038e28.pdf (this is hypertensive medicative patients who had signicant benefit to this with their blood pressure)

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.14814/phy2.13142

"BFR exercise suggests this mode of BFR exercise may be preferential for chronic use to develop muscle size and strength, and other health benefits in certain clinical populations that are contraindicated to heavy-load resistance exercise. "


I am not talking about N95 respiratory treatments, which takes on a completely DIFFERENT level of cardiovascular training. I am talking about BFR training causing normal arterial flow but restricted veinous return therefore supersaturating the tissue in a big nutshell. If you are having the above noted issues, then BFR is not for you, and NEITHER should lifting 4 plates a side because that is FAR FAR worse on your resting rates (and liklihood to passout) than strapping down your legs or arms. You haven't read the research (and can I assume you didn't read any of the articles I just posted?), you're deciding that it's all "witchcraft" and sticking to your guns, whatever it is. Science is science, with hard data, and whether you want to believe it or not, it has clinical and practical application in the gym. So we can respectfully disagree (and keep being cool with each other) on subjective wanting to do the training, but objectively you can't because it's there, and it works, and the evidence is overwhelming. It's not a replacement to training 'hard', it's an additive for additional stimulus. Can't we agree on that?
 
There aren't as many risks, and I have evidence to back it up. Blood pressure changes and heart rate increases are noted but not of catatrophic or significant risk in normal patient populations. You do not do this on someone with severe cardiac, respiratory, clotting disorders. That's a given.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30086274

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30618781

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/378c/47ebe066ed818eed0d2d57df61b478038e28.pdf (this is hypertensive medicative patients who had signicant benefit to this with their blood pressure)

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.14814/phy2.13142

"BFR exercise suggests this mode of BFR exercise may be preferential for chronic use to develop muscle size and strength, and other health benefits in certain clinical populations that are contraindicated to heavy-load resistance exercise. "

I am not talking about N95 respiratory treatments, which takes on a completely DIFFERENT level of cardiovascular training. I am talking about BFR training causing normal arterial flow but restricted veinous return therefore supersaturating the tissue in a big nutshell. If you are having the above noted issues, then BFR is not for you, and NEITHER should lifting 4 plates a side because that is FAR FAR worse on your resting rates (and liklihood to passout) than strapping down your legs or arms. You haven't read the research (and can I assume you didn't read any of the articles I just posted?), you're deciding that it's all "witchcraft" and sticking to your guns, whatever it is. Science is science, with hard data, and whether you want to believe it or not, it has clinical and practical application in the gym. So we can respectfully disagree (and keep being cool with each other) on subjective wanting to do the training, but objectively you can't because it's there, and it works, and the evidence is overwhelming. It's not a replacement to training 'hard', it's an additive for additional stimulus. Can't we agree on that?

No.

And I really have no interest in continuing this conversation since you already have presented “all” the concrete hard hitting evidence required.....lol.

I’ve done more research than you will ever know on the subject. To assume I have not is another mistake you make. I thought you would know me a little better than that.... perhaps not?

It’s a choice I’ve made based on my efforts and work. It’s been a well informed choice. My basic belief is that people worry too much about smaller things with limited to little return and forget the basics. Kind of like finding that magic supplement or timing their carbs or limiting their eating windows blah blah blah.

95% is putting in the work. The other 5% has weight.... but only if you already have 95% if your shit locked down. Lastly, there are risks to restricting blood flow while training. I don’t think you follow what I am stating though in regards to those risks.

I’ll continue to work my way, you continue to work yours. I know what I’ve done and who I’ve helped and I’m pretty happy with what I’ve accomplished.

While there may be some evidence that suggests that such methods can be beneficial. NOTHING (since for some reason we are need to use caps to get our points across) will ever compensate for moving serious weight. NOTHING.
 
No.

And I really have no interest in continuing this conversation since you already have presented “all” the concrete hard hitting evidence required.....lol.

I’ve done more research than you will ever know on the subject. To assume I have not is another mistake you make. I thought you would know me a little better than that.... perhaps not?

It’s a choice I’ve made based on my efforts and work. It’s been a well informed choice. My basic belief is that people worry too much about smaller things with limited to little return and forget the basics. Kind of like finding that magic supplement or timing their carbs or limiting their eating windows blah blah blah.

95% is putting in the work. The other 5% has weight.... but only if you already have 95% if your shit locked down. Lastly, there are risks to restricting blood flow while training. I don’t think you follow what I am stating though in regards to those risks.

I’ll continue to work my way, you continue to work yours. I know what I’ve done and who I’ve helped and I’m pretty happy with what I’ve accomplished.

While there may be some evidence that suggests that such methods can be beneficial. NOTHING (since for some reason we are need to use caps to get our points across) will ever compensate for moving serious weight. NOTHING.

Risks?? tell me. Show me your risks? Don't tell me bullshit with nothing to back it up. I'm not talking supposedly. I want real. Not "going to pass out". That's shit and not true. If you pass out as you claim from BFR you're in major trouble medically and shouldn't be lifting any of what you claim because you're risk is substantially higher. Don't try to take the higher ground with me with your shut down attitude, with your "well informed choice" and research on whatever you claim is research. This topic was for discussion, and you've shut it down without providing one aiota of evidence other than what you 'feel'. So please, add to this discussion.
 
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Risks?? tell me. Show me your risks? Don't tell me bullshit with nothing to back it up. I'm not talking supposedly. I want real. Not "going to pass out". That's shit and not true. If you pass out as you claim from BFR you're in major trouble medically and shouldn't be lifting any of what you claim because you're risk is substantially higher. Don't try to take the higher ground with me with your shut down attitude, with your "well informed choice" and research on whatever you claim is research. This topic was for discussion, and you've shut it down without providing one aiota of evidence other than what you 'feel'. So please, add to this discussion.

Lol.... ok pal.

Meh.... I don’t feel like it right now. Maybe I will feel like it another time. Why? Because I don’t have to.

Why the fuck do you think you’re in any position to bark orders at me and think for one second I would oblige you? Obviously something else you didn’t know about me but probably should have.

You haven't even read what I already wrote.

That’s clear in your responses. You’re looking to argue... nothing more, nothing less. There’s no point bringing anything to the table. It’s a complete waste of my time to go digging and post. You are so set your position is the right one you can’t even open your mind enough to actually see what I already posted.

Why are you getting so mad about this anyways? Who fucking cares.... Lol. If you want to do things like cutting off blood flow to muscles or whatever the latest thing is... fill your boots. I don’t care. But you won’t see me or anyone I work with employing such things.

Here then ... maybe this will make you happy....

BFR is the greatest, everyone should do it... it makes bro’s hyuge. In fact.....research shows You can’t get hyuge without it. All the guys that know everything about everything are doing it. It’s way better for your physique than doing anything else. Even lifting big or training volume...or anything....And it’s also super safe. In fact.....it’s the safest ever.

Happy now?

For fuck sakes. Lol.
 
Are you kidding me?? Are you a dick on purpose and trying to assert some sort of laughable authority over me? You need to try to insult me? Who do you think you are? I read clearly what you wrote: you said it's risky to cut off blood flow and worried about passing out, tried telling me about n95 training which has absolutely no bearing to it to shore up an argument. I showed you the research validating and refuting what your claim. You balk back at me and insult me and dig in deeper. Well i'm digging in deeper to your shite.

This is ridiculous. I'm of authority because i've belonged to these boards for 17 years, and i've have been instrumental into development of knowledge and progression of safe and effective training to everyone, including the board owners. I have fucking earned my respect here big guy, and I am to be listened to. To have someone like yourself even try to claim to me that despite my credentials that you actually do not respect, tell me that i'm wrong despite everything I show and you refute with just a lame insulting opinion tells me you're not even worth this crap anymore, nor is participating on this board.

Sorry to everyone who thought about discussing this but now wants nothing to do about it. I'm done.
 
Are you kidding me?? Are you a dick on purpose and trying to assert some sort of laughable authority over me? You need to try to insult me? Who do you think you are? I read clearly what you wrote: you said it's risky to cut off blood flow and worried about passing out, tried telling me about n95 training which has absolutely no bearing to it to shore up an argument. I showed you the research validating and refuting what your claim. You balk back at me and insult me and dig in deeper. Well i'm digging in deeper to your shite.

This is ridiculous. I'm of authority because i've belonged to these boards for 17 years, and i've have been instrumental into development of knowledge and progression of safe and effective training to everyone, including the board owners. I have fucking earned my respect here big guy, and I am to be listened to. To have someone like yourself even try to claim to me that despite my credentials that you actually do not respect, tell me that i'm wrong despite everything I show and you refute with just a lame insulting opinion tells me you're not even worth this crap anymore, nor is participating on this board.

Sorry to everyone who thought about discussing this but now wants nothing to do about it. I'm done.

You’re wrong about respect here my friend. You lost that a long long time ago with the choices you’ve made.

You are angry and as such have lost all connection to what was said and when it was said. My references to hypoxic training resides in the first posts and only in comparison to its methodology being similar in a sense to that of this type of training. N95 training? An N95 is a type of respirator. It’s designed to be worn in a no oil mist environment and fliters out 95% of fine particles down to .3 micron in size. The only relevance this piece of equipment has is that the tools that believe in hypoxic training is that they use the respirator to restrict airflow into the lungs and I compared it to occlusion training in the first couple posts.

I wasn’t a dick to you. I told you what you want to hear. There’s a difference. I haven’t once insulted you. I just haven’t catered to your demands. Who the fuck am I? Lol. Easy pal. I think you need to chill out a bit. We can debate all day long who has been more of an asset to the forums over the past 20 years ad nauseam I’m sure.

I told you what you wanted to hear because that’s all you wanted and you’re acting like a crazy person over something that doesn’t matter. If you think it’s sliced bread bro’ I already told you... keep cranking those tourniquets lol.

You are short sighted. I have read all sorts of literature. When I speak of safety why do you only see what the things written on paper say? Maybe I’m eluding to other things vs. Whether or not a post op patient could develop greater risk of VTE. Maybe I’m speaking to things more practical and not that of whether or not people have medical conditions that may predispose them to injury or death due to underlying medical conditions. But to stop on that there are plenty of papers that state the long term health risks of this training are not completely understood and there are more clinicians out there that still don’t agree with it. There is not any establishment of an agreed upon safe practice when setting up this type training.

Maybe I was speaking to safety in regards to things that don’t exist on paper. Things associated with actually doing the work... things like cuff damage, maybe cuffs being too thin causing repeated terrible bruising or tissue damage, maybe no established or methods for tightness standards, reproducible tightness standards and how that plays in regards to muscle fatigue, not being able to properly feel a limb and losing control because the bands are too tight. Use of such exercises in bigger or compound type lifts where failure can be experienced in an unpredictable manner. Feeling faint or even fainting. This can even be mind related to the feel of the exercises when carrying them out. I could go on and on and on. All valid safety concerns. None of which you will find written in a paper by some academic that hasn’t considered the most significant part of the whole fucking thing...... CARRYING OUT THE MOVEMENTS.

You can include yourself in that lot too. Because you didn’t even think about it. You were too tied up in trying to prove your point.

The whole lot of it is so subjective it’s ridiculous. In that I say more witch craft than it’s worth. Againdata to suggest evidence of some very desirable things we look for as bodybuilders. But nothing I’ve seen that’s significantly measurable. You know what things like that create? people that worry more about tying bands around their arms than actually putting in the work. Boiling the fucking ocean. Hurting themselves because they completely restrict any blood movement. Dropping a weight on their face because they can’t feel their arm, or can’t predict failure.

But hey what do I know.....who the fuck am I right? you keep telling me how much you’ve done and how much of a fucking expert you are. But you didn’t even consider my position... it was there the whole time.

Noob move in my mind.
 
You’re wrong about respect here my friend. You lost that a long long time ago with the choices you’ve made.

You are angry and as such have lost all connection to what was said and when it was said. My references to hypoxic training resides in the first posts and only in comparison to its methodology being similar in a sense to that of this type of training. N95 training? An N95 is a type of respirator. It’s designed to be worn in a no oil mist environment and fliters out 95% of fine particles down to .3 micron in size. The only relevance this piece of equipment has is that the tools that believe in hypoxic training is that they use the respirator to restrict airflow into the lungs and I compared it to occlusion training in the first couple posts.

I wasn’t a dick to you. I told you what you want to hear. There’s a difference. I haven’t once insulted you. I just haven’t catered to your demands. Who the fuck am I? Lol. Easy pal. I think you need to chill out a bit. We can debate all day long who has been more of an asset to the forums over the past 20 years ad nauseam I’m sure.

I told you what you wanted to hear because that’s all you wanted and you’re acting like a crazy person over something that doesn’t matter. If you think it’s sliced bread bro’ I already told you... keep cranking those tourniquets lol.

You are short sighted. I have read all sorts of literature. When I speak of safety why do you only see what the things written on paper say? Maybe I’m eluding to other things vs. Whether or not a post op patient could develop greater risk of VTE. Maybe I’m speaking to things more practical and not that of whether or not people have medical conditions that may predispose them to injury or death due to underlying medical conditions. But to stop on that there are plenty of papers that state the long term health risks of this training are not completely understood and there are more clinicians out there that still don’t agree with it. There is not any establishment of an agreed upon safe practice when setting up this type training.

Maybe I was speaking to safety in regards to things that don’t exist on paper. Things associated with actually doing the work... things like cuff damage, maybe cuffs being too thin causing repeated terrible bruising or tissue damage, maybe no established or methods for tightness standards, reproducible tightness standards and how that plays in regards to muscle fatigue, not being able to properly feel a limb and losing control because the bands are too tight. Use of such exercises in bigger or compound type lifts where failure can be experienced in an unpredictable manner. Feeling faint or even fainting. This can even be mind related to the feel of the exercises when carrying them out. I could go on and on and on. All valid safety concerns. None of which you will find written in a paper by some academic that hasn’t considered the most significant part of the whole fucking thing...... CARRYING OUT THE MOVEMENTS.

You can include yourself in that lot too. Because you didn’t even think about it. You were too tied up in trying to prove your point.

The whole lot of it is so subjective it’s ridiculous. In that I say more witch craft than it’s worth. Againdata to suggest evidence of some very desirable things we look for as bodybuilders. But nothing I’ve seen that’s significantly measurable. You know what things like that create? people that worry more about tying bands around their arms than actually putting in the work. Boiling the fucking ocean. Hurting themselves because they completely restrict any blood movement. Dropping a weight on their face because they can’t feel their arm, or can’t predict failure.

But hey what do I know.....who the fuck am I right? you keep telling me how much you’ve done and how much of a fucking expert you are. But you didn’t even consider my position... it was there the whole time.

Noob move in my mind.

I can't believe you. You could of talked about these issues originally and I could of responded in kind, so let's break it down.

1)I know what respirator training is (i'm a friggen clinician afterall), and inducing hypoxic changes via lung capacity is NOT what BFR training is despite causing a hypoxic change to the tissues, and far from it. You continue to try to attach a label to this and create a comparison which is a totally different action and metabolic pathway.

2) Let's talk about your concerns: Tourniquet size has been established to be a 2" MINIMUM cuff width because of said potential damage. Occlusion happens in clinical setting with pressure cuff measuring mmHG which is taken at the moment pedal pulse in the foot disappears if lower extremity and radial pulse in the upper extremity, then backed off by 20%. Any person who pulls a strap and their arms go numb should have the forthought to back it off, or else they deserve the damage, just as much as a dumbass who weighs 150 and tries to squat 3x their weight and crashes. You talk about patient populations with VTE, do you fucking believe in a second i'm going to expose a patient to a force that they are contraindicated to, thus injuring them and getting my ass sued?? If anyone has a VTE and tries to squat heavy or go balls to the wall with any exercise as you suggest (because you know you train so basic and balls to the wall) you're going to induce a dislodging and cause a stroke in the process!! Again, who the hell do you think I am? ALL people need to be screened. ALL these concerns you talk about, well guess what homie?? that's been looked at despite what you inadvertadely claimed without actually looking at the said research you said you're so versed in.

3) As per 2, you talk about boiling the ocean, not dropping weight on their face, etc. have you not seen gym memes or any of the other diatribe on the net with normal asshats and even experienced lifters dropping extreme weights, snapping limbs, hurting themselves by training just too hard or too Much?? Those are outliers to every scenario, and you believing that it all comes down to just not working hard enough so people want to resort to other modalities of training is absolute horse shit because it belongs in the gutter. Advancements are made, training is done differently, and while the basics are always the part of it, there is undeniable proof that you refuse to admit to because of whatever old school adage you belong to that there are sometimes better ways for some people, and even older trainers who can't lift nearly as heavy because of injury or associated risk.

Where are you not getting this?? First you say you respect me, then you tell me you dont and that I lost it from whatever choices I've made in the past?? excuse me?? exactly what choices? That's completley laughable and not worth the time to put onto screen. I know i'm of value, i've been a clinician and a damn good one for 10 years, and for anyone especially the likes of yourself to try to tell me otherwise i'll disregard because it's horse shit. I don't need to have a national level pro physique or ifbb card to qualify as such. So again, you started this by making false claims or trying to say your point without providing any evidence, and you could of said in your second post the exact shit now and I would of countered it with the evidence of establishment. But you don't want that...because you don't want to hear from someone like me who actually knows a thing or two and can back it up. I just stay quiet on these boards because it's not worth the shit flinging but i'm tired of people who try to slug their way around with back handed insults and condecension, and yea you are being difficult for the very purpose of being a prick because you don't like me. Pretty straight up.
 
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So we are occluding venous....but not arterial...blood flow,primarily for the biceps and quads.Sounds like a good way to lessen the wear and tear on the knees.
So,PhysLifter,what equipment commonly available should we be employing here?
 
VEGF
Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor
Anything that improves your endothelial lining is worth looking at.
 
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