A vegan diet will never work for 99% of BB's, Change my mind.

So what comes first, the chicken or the AA's? :p

lol, I kill me...

Thanks for the detailed answer, I think I'll stop using EAA's after i finish the rest of the container i have.

Also just saw this video was uploaded by layne norton,


Talks about Leucine/BCAA's vs Whole foods

To sum it up he mentioned a few things about the comparison between Leucine/BCAA's vs Whole foods

1)
Free form Leucine increases blood leucine levels more per gram of leucine vs whole food. Im assuming this means you need less

2)
Free form Leucine from BCAA's increase leucine levels for about an hour, whey increases leucine levels for about 3 hours and whole food increases leucine levels for about 5 hours

3)
Free form Leucine from BCAA's increase muscle protein synthesis by about 22% and whey increases muscle protein synthesis by about 50%

Still not sure about whether EAA's change this but it seems like I'll be switching back to using whey.

Isolate whey isn't too high in calories per serving, which was another reason I was using EAA's (10g of EAA's is 40calories, 24g of protein from gold standard whey from optimum nutrition is 120calories and has less leucine)
 
Thanks for the detailed answer, I think I'll stop using EAA's after i finish the rest of the container i have.

Also just saw this video was uploaded by layne norton,


Talks about Leucine/BCAA's vs Whole foods

To sum it up he mentioned a few things about the comparison between Leucine/BCAA's vs Whole foods

1)
Free form Leucine increases blood leucine levels more per gram of leucine vs whole food. Im assuming this means you need less

2)
Free form Leucine from BCAA's increase leucine levels for about an hour, whey increases leucine levels for about 3 hours and whole food increases leucine levels for about 5 hours

3)
Free form Leucine from BCAA's increase muscle protein synthesis by about 22% and whey increases muscle protein synthesis by about 50%

Still not sure about whether EAA's change this but it seems like I'll be switching back to using whey.

Isolate whey isn't too high in calories per serving, which was another reason I was using EAA's (10g of EAA's is 40calories, 24g of protein from gold standard whey from optimum nutrition is 120calories and has less leucine)


Hey bud,
How great was the timing of that vid? Uploaded 2 hrs ago, nice find. I wonder if Layne saw this thread ? I think I recall someone on here texting him for some info one time, might have even been you?

I dropped never used much but I dropped BCAA's a while ago, now I take EAA's Intra and leucine 10-15 minutes before a couple of meals a day. I try to take the leucine before whichever meals are looking light on protein content. The reason I dropped the BCAA's was because I learned that leucine is the key and it's effect is muted by the other two -isolecine and valine. IOW it works better alone than combined with the other two. Probably something to do with your first point above.

I can't remember for sure but I probably heard this from Layne actually.

Great post, thanks
 
Hey bud,
How great was the timing of that vid? Uploaded 2 hrs ago, nice find. I wonder if Layne saw this thread ? I think I recall someone on here texting him for some info one time, might have even been you?

I dropped never used much but I dropped BCAA's a while ago, now I take EAA's Intra and leucine 10-15 minutes before a couple of meals a day. I try to take the leucine before whichever meals are looking light on protein content. The reason I dropped the BCAA's was because I learned that leucine is the key and it's effect is muted by the other two -isolecine and valine. IOW it works better alone than combined with the other two. Probably something to do with your first point above.

I can't remember for sure but I probably heard this from Layne actually.

Great post, thanks

I believe I actually read the same thing in an article quoting a study, looked around and found it here (quoted below).

7.3 Leucine
Leucine is the amino acid that is thought to be most potent at stimulating MPS. Peak plasma leucine concentrations following protein ingestion typically correlate with muscle protein synthesis rates (Pennings, 2011). This supports the notion that protein digestion rate and protein leucine content are important predictors for anabolic effect of a protein source.

While leucine is very important, other amino acids also play a role,

This is best illustrated by study which compared the muscle protein synthetic response to five different supplemental protocol:

  1. 6.25 g whey
  2. 6.25 g whey with 2.25 g leucine for a total of 3 g leucine
  3. 6.25 g whey with 4.25 g leucine added for a total of 5 g leucine
  4. 6.25 g whey with 6 g BCAA added (4.25 g leucine, 1.38 g isoluecine for, and 1.35 g valine)
  5. 25 g whey (contains a total of 3 g leucine)

Muscle protein synthesis following whey, leucine and BCAA supplementation






All five conditions increased muscle protein synthesis rates compared to fasting conditions. As expected from our earlier discussion on the optimal amount of protein, 25 gram of protein increased MPS rates more than just 6.25 gram.

Interestingly, the addition of 2.25 gram leucine to 6.25 gram whey did not further improve MPS. Since this low whey + low leucine amount had the total amount of leucine as 25 g whey (which contains 3 g leucine), it indicates that leucine alone doesn’t determine the muscle protein synthesis response.

The addition of a larger amount of leucine (4.25 gram) to the 6.25 gram whey did further improve MPS, with MPS rates being similar to the 25 gram of whey. This indicates that the addition of a relatively small amount of leucine to a low dose of protein can be as effective as a much larger total amount of protein.

Finally, it’s really interesting that the addition of the 2 other branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) appeared to prevent the positive effect of leucine on MPS. Isoleucine and valine use the same transporter for uptake in the gut as leucine. Therefore, it is speculated that isoleucine and valine compete for uptake with leucine, resulting in a less rapid leucine peak which is thought to be an important determinant of MPS rates.
 
The first Mr O, Larry Scott.

He wasnt a Vegan or at least not that I am aware of. The closest we got to a Vegan from the golden era is Bill Pearl. He was a lacto ovo vegitarian (ya I know this isnt being a Vegan) for the last few years he competed. He did eat a more traditional BB type diet for most of his years of competitive body building. He did weigh 242 for his last comp and was ripped to the standards of the day. That was while being the above mentioned vegetarian. He didnt go totally vegitarian while still competing as he was concerned about getting enough protein.
 
He wasnt a Vegan or at least not that I am aware of. The closest we got to a Vegan from the golden era is Bill Pearl. He was a lacto ovo vegitarian (ya I know this isnt being a Vegan) for the last few years he competed. He did eat a more traditional BB type diet for most of his years of competitive body building. He did weigh 242 for his last comp and was ripped to the standards of the day. That was while being the above mentioned vegetarian. He didnt go totally vegitarian while still competing as he was concerned about getting enough protein.

Shit I believe you are correct. Better check with google.
 
I'm kinda late to this discussion. However, I do have a "take" on this:

I have tried extensively and experimented with a Vegan diet at length. My girlfriend is a vegan for 35+ years and admirably fit, strong and healthy.

My reason vary but mostly as a fisherman and outdoors man I dislike the waste caused by large production animal farming.

My case has lead back around to my starting point which is more of a 30% animal based protein source diet.

Many know I was in an accident that left me ....different. Like i wasn't already for fuck sake!

I do not possess a common bile duct to my liver, I lost over 4 ft of lower intestine, I ruptured my thyroid gland and lost my gallbladder. To say the least there is a bulk of foods in a vegan diet that have turned out to be completely impossible for me to digest.

We were away in Whistler for a week just on the cusp of the pandemic. I was once again determined to introduce more plant based foods to my diet.

My girlfriend got fed up with my abdominal problems and bought me a steak!

Nuff said!

Grandpa!
 
I 100% think its possible, but we don't live in a world that makes it easy. I've been mostly plant-based (vegetarian) for 28 years now (I'm 44) so it's tough to remember what things were like when I ate meat. I can say I'm healthier than most people my age as I don't get sick often, if ever. (I would consider going "vegan" if only pizza didn't exist) Back to my point, things are getting easier to go plant-based. When I first stopped eating meat It was hard to eat healthily. Most meals you'd find with no meat at restaurants would be either unhealthy or a lame side of a single serving of 1 type of vegetable. Good recipes were also tough to find. Fast forward to today and there are lots of restaurants that serve multiple options for plant-based diets, and a ton of great recipe books with amazing meals you can do at home. My point is, that as it becomes easier and more "normal" (accepted by currently closed minds) to eat a plant-based diet you will see the number of successful bodybuilders go up. It's has proven to work for other athletes, so there is no reason the diet can't be adapted to work for bodybuilders. Meat is unsustainable, I truly believe that in my lifetime the ratio of plant-based eaters will approach or exceed meat eaters.. As this happens more research will be put into how to do it properly. I feel like time will tell, so to say "never work" ... I would have to disagree with that statement.


P>S.. The Game Changers on Netflix is a great documentary on this subject. I realize that there are a lot of counter-arguments to the documentary, but still a decent watch. especially since you've probably watched everything else on Netflix by now.

P.P.S. I do what I do, but have never in my life tried to push what I do onto others. I get it, you like meat.
 
I 100% think its possible, but we don't live in a world that makes it easy. I've been mostly plant-based (vegetarian) for 28 years now (I'm 44) so it's tough to remember what things were like when I ate meat. I can say I'm healthier than most people my age as I don't get sick often, if ever. (I would consider going "vegan" if only pizza didn't exist) Back to my point, things are getting easier to go plant-based. When I first stopped eating meat It was hard to eat healthily. Most meals you'd find with no meat at restaurants would be either unhealthy or a lame side of a single serving of 1 type of vegetable. Good recipes were also tough to find. Fast forward to today and there are lots of restaurants that serve multiple options for plant-based diets, and a ton of great recipe books with amazing meals you can do at home. My point is, that as it becomes easier and more "normal" (accepted by currently closed minds) to eat a plant-based diet you will see the number of successful bodybuilders go up. It's has proven to work for other athletes, so there is no reason the diet can't be adapted to work for bodybuilders. Meat is unsustainable, I truly believe that in my lifetime the ratio of plant-based eaters will approach or exceed meat eaters.. As this happens more research will be put into how to do it properly. I feel like time will tell, so to say "never work" ... I would have to disagree with that statement.


P>S.. The Game Changers on Netflix is a great documentary on this subject. I realize that there are a lot of counter-arguments to the documentary, but still a decent watch. especially since you've probably watched everything else on Netflix by now.

P.P.S. I do what I do, but have never in my life tried to push what I do onto others. I get it, you like meat.
Argh, Game Changers is mentioned again 🤦‍♂️
 
obviously one-sided, but any smart person can see that. They should also be able to take some truths from it too. No one should be so passionate about one side vs the other. I don't argue that you shouldn't eat meat, only that it's possible not to and still perform at a high level. I digress.
 
obviously one-sided, but any smart person can see that. They should also be able to take some truths from it too. No one should be so passionate about one side vs the other. I don't argue that you shouldn't eat meat, only that it's possible not to and still perform at a high level. I digress.

Couple of good posts there sir. You didn't change my mind but good stuff none the less.
 
Hey bud did you see my last post? Directly addresses what I believe to be the biggest concern regarding your question. EAA's yes but you need enough leucine to initiate production.

Here is the way I usually explain it - 'Think of Amino Acids as the building blocks of muscle tissue, the food they are contained in is the truck that delivers these blocks to the job site. A bunch of these building blocks have all the plans and instructions inside of it for the thing you want to build, those blocks are called leucine. You need a full set of plans before construction can commence (3grams plus). Without enough leucine you can keep taking delivery of as many blocks as you want but you'll just have a pile of blocks. Eventually the foreman will get tired of looking at them and say "if we arent gonna use them either put them into storage (fat, etc), burn it or just get that shit outta here."

Obviously not scientifically accurate but I find it gets the point across.

Sounds pretty scientifically accurate for us "slower" fellas lol I like it good explanation.
 
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