A vegan diet will never work for 99% of BB's, Change my mind.

gondar1

I'm kind of a big deal in Japan
Trusted Member
Now this has the potential to be a real complicated discussion, please fire away with that if you so desire but I've been up and down this subject for years and I have formed this opinion. Even the strongest arguements I have heard for it presented a methodology that would be very expensive and a royal pain in the ass time gobbler to implement. So I'll give all you plant killers a simple out if you like. Same way I end almost all these convos - show me the bodies!

I'm not trying to start an arguement just to have one, I have an open mind, so whatca got?
 
I only know two grapplers that were successful as vegans...Jake Shields and Edwardo Telles. Both were meticulous with their diets to get the right mix of aminos daily. Of the 4 Gracies i know, that follows the "Gracie diet," cheats all the time and eat some meat or tons of sushi.

Off all the competitive guys i have trained, a 1/2 dozen or so have tried but it just did not work. They all got soft, lighter and bloated. Cutting weight and maintaining conditioning as a vegan was next to impossible.

I think vegan plus a ton of fish is doable and probably healthy but just too hard for the average athlete to eat just plant based. And ironically a few i know ended up having iron issues because there is a ton of heavy metals in lentals, grains, etc today.

Sorry zero chance i could change your mind...and my mind is not very open on this topic after the experiments i have seen.
 
It all comes down to genetics. Some people are blessed. I have a bodybuilder buddy who just finished first place in an all vegan bodybuilding show. He also has the IFBB record for biggest arms on a vegan bodybuilder. He gets his protein from lentils and can make gainer shakes out of his vegan protein powder, oats, natural honey and almond milk. He’s made impressive gains for a vegan bodybuilder, pic of him below.

057F8681-780B-48FC-9CB2-D1BF354F17C6.jpeg
 
It all comes down to genetics. Some people are blessed. I have a bodybuilder buddy who just finished first place in an all vegan bodybuilding show. He also has the IFBB record for biggest arms on a vegan bodybuilder. He gets his protein from lentils and can make gainer shakes out of his vegan protein powder, oats, natural honey and almond milk. He’s made impressive gains for a vegan bodybuilder, pic of him below.

Obviously there will be outliers, that's why I said 99%. If your friend ever hopes to move up to the open class he is going to have to work on bring his serratus' up, symmetry and balance are important bro.
 
Obviously there will be outliers, that's why I said 99%. If your friend ever hopes to move up to the open class he is going to have to work on bring his serratus' up, symmetry and balance are important bro.

he does horrible in open. He says it’s genetics.
 
Lol well I'm gonna have to do some digging now and post up information.

I'm not arguing that bodybuilders don't need meat.
Every time before this my biggest hurdle has been eating lbs of meat every day.

I haven't taken any digestive enzymes in a couple days & I haven't had acid reflux issues either, I have an overly well sense of being.
When I wake in the morning I'm dressed and in the garage before I wanted that cup of coffee before I got anything moving.

I've been going through veggies, legumes & plant based foods. I'm still working on it but I'll have a diet figured out, for the next 14 weeks I'll be going vegan. In 7-8 more weeks I'll post up another progress shot.

I was told that soy causes elevated estrogen issues. And so far I've found that as one of the only down falls to this.

In terms of over all vitamin, amino acid & macro profiles comparing meat to veg & nuts.
I can find superior substitutions that are plant based.
Let me do some digging I'll be back.

Lol I won't be posting up any vegan gains programs. People are right those are shit and no wounder they never work.
 
I remember reading somewhere that no society has ever survived on a purely vegan diet... never tried to fact check that and I'm no historian or expert by any means, but gut feel tells me that's probably true.
 
A basic outlook on veganism vs carnivore is that they both have the same dietary need in place for human survival.

While a lot of meat does have proven human trials higher & more complete protein source.

Plant based foods lower cholesterol, cardiovascular risk, lower blood pressure, improved nitric oxide delivery, increased vasodilation.

The standard for our diet has always been macros, this is what we know and what we build on, ive always gone over my diets to make sure I’m hitting my target including calories over all.

Seldom is it ever brought up about the total amino acid intake, until now Ive never actually looked at the amino acid profile in my diets. Our protein needs are 100% amino acid based.

Disregarding fats & carbs in every argument I’ve found so far that is science & trial based it is dependent on protein synthesis, breakdown, absorption with primary targeting of the leucine amino acid in plant vs meat studies

90%+ of every diet ive seen whether it be cutting or bulking the fats and carbs are largely made up of grains & nuts. Protein is animal based.

Singling out protein for this discussion if a person were to intake the RDA requirements of amino acids he/she would be getting a complete protein source.

RDA FOR ADULTS – reference, Global RPH

19 y and older

14 mg/kg/day of histidine

19 mg/kg/day of isoleucine

42 mg/kg/day of leucine

38 mg/kg/day of lysine

19 mg/kg/day of methionine + cysteine

33 mg/kg/day of phenylalanine + tyrosine

20 mg/kg/day of threonine

5 mg/kg/day of tryptophan

24 mg/kg/day of valine
 
I still have alot research into actual level intake on amino acid profiles required to sustain & build muscle tissue.
Partial basing will be on the recommended 1.5g protein per lb ratio
Main basing for this diet to work will be total needed amino acids.

If anyone has a better source of recommended dietary allowance for total amino acid profile please post up a link.
 
I still have alot research into actual level intake on amino acid profiles required to sustain & build muscle tissue.
Partial basing will be on the recommended 1.5g protein per lb ratio
Main basing for this diet to work will be total needed amino acids.

If anyone has a better source of recommended dietary allowance for total amino acid profile please post up a link.

Good posts sir. I don't have a link for you but - Layne Norton, Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld - Between theses three fellas I'd bet they could answer all your questions and back it with science.

Layne is likely the world's leading "known" researcher in the area of all things protein, check out what he has to say about Leucine and it's effect on Muscle Protein Synthesis and mTOR etc, it appears to me to be the most critical part of this puzzle to solve. I already use it now (5g at a time) but if I didn't eat meat it might be the first thing I would seek to supplement, Basically if you don't have at least 3g of Leucine in a meal then MPS will not be initiated regardless of other amino levels. I believe the recommended doses are 3.5g for guys up to 35(?) and 5g for us older folks.
 
It all comes down to genetics. Some people are blessed. I have a bodybuilder buddy who just finished first place in an all vegan bodybuilding show. He also has the IFBB record for biggest arms on a vegan bodybuilder. He gets his protein from lentils and can make gainer shakes out of his vegan protein powder, oats, natural honey and almond milk. He’s made impressive gains for a vegan bodybuilder, pic of him below.

View attachment 4163
chest on he like a sparrows knee cap lol
 
Before you get on a vegan diet you actually need to research on a lot of options of food and nutrition value it holds there are things you can eat that is vegan and you get a lot of protein out of it for example peas have carry out a lot of protein more than any other vegetable out there. But it is impossible to be vegan at list for me I love deferent options! I’m pescatarian so I eat a lot of seafood and vegetables.
 
Can’t say I’ve done much research on this

But if one were on a vegan diet, can’t you just consume EAA’s to get the same benefits as eating protein

From my understanding consuming high amounts of protein in a bodybuilders diet is to get enough EAAS to increase protein synthesis and not much of the actual amount of protein is used
 
Can’t say I’ve done much research on this

But if one were on a vegan diet, can’t you just consume EAA’s to get the same benefits as eating protein

From my understanding consuming high amounts of protein in a bodybuilders diet is to get enough EAAS to increase protein synthesis and not much of the actual amount of protein is used

Hey bud did you see my last post? Directly addresses what I believe to be the biggest concern regarding your question. EAA's yes but you need enough leucine to initiate production.

Here is the way I usually explain it - 'Think of Amino Acids as the building blocks of muscle tissue, the food they are contained in is the truck that delivers these blocks to the job site. A bunch of these building blocks have all the plans and instructions inside of it for the thing you want to build, those blocks are called leucine. You need a full set of plans before construction can commence (3grams plus). Without enough leucine you can keep taking delivery of as many blocks as you want but you'll just have a pile of blocks. Eventually the foreman will get tired of looking at them and say "if we arent gonna use them either put them into storage (fat, etc), burn it or just get that shit outta here."

Obviously not scientifically accurate but I find it gets the point across.
 
Can’t say I’ve done much research on this

But if one were on a vegan diet, can’t you just consume EAA’s to get the same benefits as eating protein

From my understanding consuming high amounts of protein in a bodybuilders diet is to get enough EAAS to increase protein synthesis and not much of the actual amount of protein is used

theoretically one could yes, you would have to consume supplementation multiple times through out the day.
absorption is also greater when consume a whole foods. slower absorption times allow for a more steady state of aminos being released into the body wich will provide better fuel. also money is a factor, eaa's arent cheap.
beans, lentils, peas are only a few dollar per lb
the biggest main reason why vegan diets dont work and also why people actually get sick and loose strength is because of leucine.
bio availability of leucine in plant based foods is only 60% of advertised content, animal based has 100% absorption rate.

leucine as ive learned is basically the boss of everything, your overall wellness and performance is based largely on this one amino acid. this is why almost all studies and trials done will heavily outline the negatives towards bio availability of leucine in plant based foods.

if one spends times and plans out a proper diet it could work but 100% there are going to have to be supplements added in for it to work proper.
the biggest factor is all of the health benefits from dropping animal based products from our diet.
#1 that im after vasilodation with lower blood pressure.
 
It all comes down to genetics. Some people are blessed. I have a bodybuilder buddy who just finished first place in an all vegan bodybuilding show. He also has the IFBB record for biggest arms on a vegan bodybuilder. He gets his protein from lentils and can make gainer shakes out of his vegan protein powder, oats, natural honey and almond milk. He’s made impressive gains for a vegan bodybuilder, pic of him below.

View attachment 4163
lmfao its looking at a time capsule of my teen years. add in 3xl shirts and baggy pants hanging down to my knees, i had like a 3' chain on my wallet for what reason i have no idea but ohh the memories.
 
Hey bud did you see my last post? Directly addresses what I believe to be the biggest concern regarding your question. EAA's yes but you need enough leucine to initiate production.

Here is the way I usually explain it - 'Think of Amino Acids as the building blocks of muscle tissue, the food they are contained in is the truck that delivers these blocks to the job site. A bunch of these building blocks have all the plans and instructions inside of it for the thing you want to build, those blocks are called leucine. You need a full set of plans before construction can commence (3grams plus). Without enough leucine you can keep taking delivery of as many blocks as you want but you'll just have a pile of blocks. Eventually the foreman will get tired of looking at them and say "if we arent gonna use them either put them into storage (fat, etc), burn it or just get that shit outta here."

Obviously not scientifically accurate but I find it gets the point across.

Sorry didn’t see your last post

I should have mentioned leucine
I’ve recently switched to supplementing with “all 9” EAAS from scivation, since I stopped eating so much protein they have over 3G of leucine per serving, i made sure to get an EAA blend with enough.

Might just switch back to using whey since it’s cheaper though

Was wondering if you knew if EAAS would work since they’re absorbed quickly. Would that mean something with slower absorption like chicken, would keep amino acid levels elevated longer be better?

theoretically one could yes, you would have to consume supplementation multiple times through out the day.
absorption is also greater when consume a whole foods. slower absorption times allow for a more steady state of aminos being released into the body wich will provide better fuel. also money is a factor, eaa's arent cheap.
beans, lentils, peas are only a few dollar per lb
the biggest main reason why vegan diets dont work and also why people actually get sick and loose strength is because of leucine.
bio availability of leucine in plant based foods is only 60% of advertised content, animal based has 100% absorption rate.

leucine as ive learned is basically the boss of everything, your overall wellness and performance is based largely on this one amino acid. this is why almost all studies and trials done will heavily outline the negatives towards bio availability of leucine in plant based foods.

if one spends times and plans out a proper diet it could work but 100% there are going to have to be supplements added in for it to work proper.
the biggest factor is all of the health benefits from dropping animal based products from our diet.
#1 that im after vasilodation with lower blood pressure.

I found actually using protein supplements, whether whey or amino acids, ended up being cheaper than food

I used to use whey protein to save money, chicken, meats are a lot more expensive to get the same amount of protein and whey has more leucine.
Egg whites and tuna was cheaper but whey protein on clearance was still 1/2 to 1/3rd the price (per save serving/protein content)
 
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Was wondering if you knew if EAAS would work since they’re absorbed quickly. Would that mean something with slower absorption like chicken, would keep amino acid levels elevated longer be better?

Pre PS - I know you know all this shit forgive the long ramble it took me to get to the point, don't bust on my sloppy terminology fellas if I nit picked I'd never get finished

This is something I have been pondering forever, I'm sure that at some point I must have come across a study of some sort that that answered it but for my interests I wonder if that is even the right question to be asking. I think what I am most interested in at the end of the day is "what is the best strategy for keeping AA levels at a level that will maximize their use in building muscle?"

EAA's supplied in powdered form the way we buy them (I use Canpro's) must be right near the top of the list when considering speed of absorption right? We know whey is a little slower and casein a little slower still. I can't say exactly where meat and stuff would rank but let's assume the more "whole" a food is the slower it is to digest and absorb the AA's.

So, easy peazy right? Want some AA's right quick - Powdered EAA's. Want some that will last a long time - Casein or whole foods. Problem solved, tons of guys use this strategy.

BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE!

And this is the part where I lose confidence in my knowledge/thought process.
At some point I learned about "residence time". Here's an example that's simple and most of us will be familiar with - Your estro gets "too high" and you start to get gyno. Basically you have E receptors in your chest and the Estro in your system fills them which sets of a chain of events that cause gyno. One strategy to combat this is to use a SERM like Nolva or Ralox, those SERMs fill the receptor but don't activate it. Now the Estro cant get in to activate the receptor and perpetuate the gyno.

Often of course it will take more than one dose to set you straight, first question will be how much and second will be how often. The way we meatheads figure out how often is usually by asking "what's the half life" and making decisions based on that. Yeah that generally will work out but strictly speaking it might not be the right question.

Half life is a measure of how much is floating around inside you but residence time is very different. Residence time (in this example) would be a measure of how much time the SERM is occupying the receptor. I don't care what the half life is in plasma, what I really care about is how long my tits are protected. IF I could take a SERM that had a 24hr half life but a 7 day residence time I'd take that option.

I said all that just so i could say this - Their must be some similar type of actions going on with protein, AA's, MPS, mTOR etc.

So "what is the best strategy for keeping AA levels at a level that will maximize their use in building muscle?"
Which choice is better from that perspective, which one "works" effectively for the longest? Honestly a very interesting subject but we all seem to get by well enough by just eating big and often. I like getting into the science of it too though, if I can find 10 things that make my mission more succesfull by 0.1% each that's 1 whole percent, do that 10 times and I'll be noticeably better than without them.
...


I found actually using protein supplements, whether whey or amino acids, ended up being cheaper than food

I used to use whey protein to save money, chicken, meats are a lot more expensive to get the same amount of protein and whey has more leucine.
Egg whites and tuna was cheaper but whey protein on clearance was still 1/2 to 1/3rd the price (per save serving/protein content)

Very Good point, It's very easy to jump to "get your nutrition from whole foods bro" but finances are a very real consideration

So what comes first, the chicken or the AA's? :p

lol, I kill me...
 
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